DMG2 Riding Boots, prereq feats, and the CW Cavalier PrC

[Kershek]

So, Hypersmurf, what do you think of my original question?

 

[Artoomis]

So if I'm a 4th level elf who rolled a 13 in Dex and put my 4th level stat bump in Dex, my actual Dexterity score is 13, but it's effectively a 16 as long as I'm a 4th level elf?

If I die and get reincarnated as a human, I lose a level and lose my racial bonus, and my Dex will be 13, so I can't use the stat bump or the racial bonus to qualify for feats or prestige classes, right?

I disagree. While you're wearing the gloves, your Dexterity is 14. It isn't effectively 14; it's 14. The actual score is 14, not 12.

-Hyp.

No Hyp. You're being ridiculuos (again). There are all kinds of ways to get temporary bonuses, and I certainly would not allow those to count. Let's say you found a way to get a spell-induced dex bonus so that you qualify for a Dex 13 Feat you want as a rerequisite for something else too hard to do, really). Okay, so you boost your Dex every day while you level up. Now you quailfy fot the feat, right? Everytime you cast the spell, you can use the feat, too, and, furthermore, you can take other feats or prestige classes that required you to have the feat.

Ridiculous. While I agree that you can read the rules to support your position, Hyp, I think it's NOT a good reading. I read them to mean that you must actually have the score, not by way of some temporary enhancement, into which I would include magic items whose effects go away whan you remove the item.

I would say that temporary enhancements (including from items) are simply not permanent enough to count as "having" a particular attribute.

I think that's the best way to read the rules as a whole. It's not the only way to look at this, of course, and I do agree that your way is a legitimat, if misguided, way to view this.

Youre way leads to lot's of potential problems that are trivial to avoid.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I would say that temporary enhancements (including from items) are simply not permanent enough to count as "having" a particular attribute.

Which is a rule you would find where, exactly?

 

[Artoomis]

Which is a rule you would find where, exactly?

It's more a definitional thing - what does it mean to say you have a Dex of 13 to take a feat?

You could legitimately come to two conclusions:

1. If you have the Dex of 13, no matter how you have it, or for how long (spells, items, whatever).

2. If you have it more-or-less permanently (that is so say, it represents your DEX score, well and truly, not just some temporarily enhanced score).

You could read it either way, I just say that number 2 is far more reasonable, but both are legitimate readings of the rules.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

2. If you have it more-or-less permanently (that is so say, it represents your DEX score, well and truly, not just some temporarily enhanced score).

Except that "I have it more-or-less permanently, because I never really take off my Gloves of Dexterity +4" seems to fit.

 

[Artoomis]

Except that "I have it more-or-less permanently, because I never really take off my Gloves of Dexterity +4" seems to fit.

If that works for you, great. I think that has potential for problems, but if it works for your game, good for you.

Either position can be equally supported by the rules, so do it however feels right to you, or whatever feels right to your DM.

 

[IcyCool]

"... a class feature or special ability"

A special ability you have, not one you get by way of a magic item. Including magic items is stretching things mighty far and could cause all kinds of problems.

By that definition, I assume you'd be consistent and rule that anyone with a strength of 12 who is capable of casting Bull's Strength would be able to take power attack, right? The ability to cast bull's strength is a special ability that they have.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that you would feel it is horribly broken to allow qualifying for feats based on items. That's great, and if it works for your game, go for it. It doesn't appear anywhere in the RAW, but neither does the opposite viewpoint. However, the opposing viewpoint does have some good circumstantial evidence pointing to it being correct.

*shrugs*

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, Hypersmurf, what do you think of my original question?

Uh... wasn't that the first reply to the thread?

It's more a definitional thing - what does it mean to say you have a Dex of 13 to take a feat?

Except in cases where the effect providing a bonus contains specific exceptions - like Owl's Wisdom and bonus spells, for example - the answer to the question "What is your Dexterity score" is a single number at any given time.

If I rolled a 9 for Dex, +2 racial bonus for being an elf, improved by one point at 4th level, and wearing Gloves of Dexterity +2, my Dexterity score is 14. It isn't 9; it isn't 12; it's 14.

If I rolled a 9 for Dex, +2 racial bonus for being an elf, improved by one point at 4th level, wearing Gloves of Dexterity +2, and standing in an Antimagic Field, my Dexterity score is 12.

If I rolled a 9 for Dex, +2 racial bonus for being an elf, improved by one point at 4th level, wearing Gloves of Dexterity +2, and polymorphed into a Troll, my Dexterity score is 16.

At any given time, only one number matters, because it's the answer to the question "What is your Dexterity score?"

To qualify for Dodge, that number must be 13 or higher. If at any time the answer to that question is not 13 or higher, I lose the benefits of the feat. But that doesn't prevent me qualifying for the feat if the answer to the question is 14 when I want to take it.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

...At any given time, only one number matters, because it's the answer to the question "What is your Dexterity score?"

To qualify for Dodge, that number must be 13 or higher. If at any time the answer to that question is not 13 or higher, I lose the benefits of the feat. But that doesn't prevent me qualifying for the feat if the answer to the question is 14 when I want to take it.

-Hyp.

Obviously, I disagree, and I think both our positions are supported by the RAW, so my advice is to follow the way you think is better for any particular game.

I think it's perfectly reasonable and within the rules to seperate out the difference between your actual Dex (all permanent bonuses taken into accoiunt) and your current dex score with all modifiers from items and spells.

It just a matter of interpretation, and thus it's okay to take either side of this one and call yourself "correct."

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think it's perfectly reasonable and within the rules to seperate out the difference between your actual Dex (all permanent bonuses taken into accoiunt) and your current dex score with all modifiers from items and spells.

Your current dex score with all modifiers from items and spells is your 'actual Dex', for as long as those modifiers are in effect.

-Hyp.