DMM Persistent Spell - Do You Allow It?

[Drowbane]

wow, that's a houserule? I thought that was just common sense.

Common Sense is the breeding ground for House Rules.

 

[Drowbane]

How many of the people that don't allow it have seen it used in campaigns and banned it because of that as opposed to banning it on theory?

Is there a difference?

Bye
Thanee

Absolutely.

How many people Banned Warlocks and Warforged (as two examples) on the theory alone that they are broken? I rememeber alot of folks on these boards doing so.

A few weeks/months it turns out that niether the class or race is really all that powerful.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

How many people Banned Warlocks and Warforged (as two examples) on the theory alone that they are broken? I rememeber alot of folks on these boards doing so.

A few weeks/months it turns out that niether the class or race is really all that powerful.

Ditto for the Mystic Theurge, if you are trying to compile a list.

As I said before, I don't mind DMs who say no in the beginning of a campaign. If the DM really thinks a warlock or warforged or Mystic Thuerge is broken, I can accept that. Just don't nerf it midgame! If you start with it allowed, finish the campaign with it allowed!

And that is the point behind banning on theory vs. banning on practice. People who ban on theory don't have to course-correct midgame. They can course correct at the beginning of the next campaign if they want to try it out, and everyone knows going in what the rules are going to be like. People who ban based on experience can be easily tempted to course-correct midcampaign (although I'm not claiming they all succomb to the temptation). Mid-campaign nerfings are annoying.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Absolutely.

How many people Banned Warlocks and Warforged (as two examples) on the theory alone that they are broken? I rememeber alot of folks on these boards doing so.

A few weeks/months it turns out that niether the class or race is really all that powerful.

Well, two for three anyway if we include Mystic Theurge as NLF suggested The people who banned Mystic Theurge generally didn't build or playtest, though. And Warlocks. I never banned either and always thought they were fair. Warforged, on the other hand, the time and playtest does not prove to be balanced. It's not going to destroy most games or anything (like Divine Metamagic Persistant often will), but for many classes, Warforged is a massive advantage at low levels, and this is through both playtest and having them in games.

Lest this thread devolve into Warforged discussions (where you say you had them in games and they weren't the most powerful because X other player did Y that was worse, just like some Divine Metamagic defenders are doing here), we can agree on the rest of your post and leave it there.

Really, though, Mistwell (as he proclaimed himself) has been known to champion most overpowered combos with the same "the GM could theoretically do something that might stop it if she biased all the encounters against it, and/or everyone could armsrace with this combo" sentiments in this thread--when he's on the "It's Overpowered" side, you should definitely listen to him!

 

[Charwoman Gene]

How many people Banned Warlocks and Warforged (as two examples) on the theory alone that they are broken?

Note to self: Stat up Warforged Warlock.

 

[James McMurray]

Note to self: Stat up Warforged Warlock.

Don't you mean gestalt Warforged / cleric with DMM?

 

[RigaMortus2]

But, like any "problem" rule, you can always build your PC in such a way as to avoid the supposed limitations. It's pretty pointless, IMO, to claim that "most won't get much out of it". We aren't talking about a generic PC here.

We aren't talking about a specific PC here either. The OP asked if would allow it, and I would based on the fact that I know my players, and I know myself. If I did not feel comfortable in allowing this feat, then I would have said otherwise.

And while you can build a PC around a DMM: Permanent theme to maximize on the feat, there are other things the DM can rule out besides the DMM feat to stop that from happening (again, if they see it as a true problem).

There aren't many spells that a Cleric can cast on himself that would make this combo "broken" in my eyes. So what if he can Divine Power so his BAB is equal to a Fighter? Not a problem for me, perhaps for others. But that is why I voted the way I did, and I am sure that is why others who do not agree voted the way they did.

 

[Nail]

Really, though, Mistwell (as he proclaimed himself) has been known to champion most overpowered combos with the same "the GM could theoretically do something that might stop it if she biased all the encounters against it, and/or everyone could armsrace with this combo" sentiments in this thread--when he's on the "It's Overpowered" side, you should definitely listen to him!

True, that!

 

[Slaved]

True, that!

Because he overreacts in one direction he is immune to overreacting in the other direction?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Because he overreacts in one direction he is immune to overreacting in the other direction?

True that!

Actually, I find the whole "because Mistwell is arguing this way it must be overpowered" argument to be unconvincing, and hope it wasn't seriously offered (for the sake of not being rude to Mistwell, at the very least).

I still am in the camp that the overpoweredness of DMM: persistant is at best situational. As a DM, I know that I can handle it and it won't be broken in my campaigns. If other DMs come to the opposite conclusion based on their style and the people that they game with, that's great! But this concept that something is broken all the time or across the board is just weird. The concept of "broken" is much too highly dependant upon the player's builds and the DMs style.

Do I allow it? Sure. Is it broken? Not here. Have I had many people take it because of the cost involced? Not many. Is it worth my time nerfing? Not at all.

Can other DMs nerf it and still have a good game? Of course they can (and hopefully they do at the start of a campaign and not in the middle)!