DMM Persistent Spell - Do You Allow It?

[James McMurray]

How many of the people that don't allow it have seen it used in campaigns and banned it because of that as opposed to banning it on theory?

 

[Grog]

Not only don't I allow DMM(Persist), I don't allow DMM or Persist in isolation.

Actually, IMO Persistent Spell isn't that bad since they changed it to a +6 to the spell level instead of a +4. No more Persistent Divine Power or Righteous Might (at least, in pre-epic play).

 

[Piratecat]

How many of the people that don't allow it have seen it used in campaigns and banned it because of that as opposed to banning it on theory?

With the agreement of the player who was using it, we removed Persistent Spell from the game, and in my opinion the game is better for it. I haven't tried DMM Persistent in the game as a result.

 

[Pyrex]

The payoff is hands down much larger than the investment. I really can't see how it would end up as balanced relative to the opportunity cost of the feats you are passing up. What other feats would result in something more powerful than this result?

Two Domain powers + a Feat or Three feats to get one mid-level (dispellable) buff spell (that you could likely just cast during each fight anyway) to last all day?

I can think of *plenty* of other things to do with those feat/domain slots:
*Sun domain
*Sudden Maximize
*Divine Vigor
*etc...

 

[Mistwell]

What is the worst you can do with it at level 6?

I'd say probably a persistant "Mass Vigor, Lesser", so that your party has fast healing - constant. And the FAQ even uses this example I believe.

 

[Mistwell]

Two Domain powers + a Feat or Three feats to get one mid-level (dispellable) buff spell (that you could likely just cast during each fight anyway) to last all day?

I can think of *plenty* of other things to do with those feat/domain slots:
*Sun domain
*Sudden Maximize
*Divine Vigor
*etc...

There is no reason to exagerate.

It's Extend spell, which is a useful feat for a cleric on it's own, and persistant spell, and divine metamagic. Three feats, two of which can be obtained through domains, or through just picking up feats. You can gain more power by using extra turning and picking up items like the nightstick and increases to your stats that increase your turn attempts, but they are not necessary, just useful. Much like most character concepts. But this one starts getting level-20 like powers at level 6 and up!

 

[James McMurray]

With the agreement of the player who was using it, we removed Persistent Spell from the game, and in my opinion the game is better for it. I haven't tried DMM Persistent in the game as a result.

Was it an epic game, or did he have other ways of making it cheap/free? I'm trying to figure out how a +6 metamagic is broken in other situations and am drawing a blank.

 

[Corsair]

I haven't DMed in a while, but if I do in the near future, I will not be allowing nightsticks. That alone reduces the cheese to a managable level.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I haven't DMed in a while, but if I do in the near future, I will not be allowing nightsticks. That alone reduces the cheese to a managable level.

I agree. I don't use nightsticks, either.

However, I've no problem with DMM or persistant. A character so specialized is going to be easily defeated by enemies. Don't think they'll be able to do a tiny bit of research and find out what completely foils the cleric?

Actually, as a DM I kind of enjoy when players contemplate throwing DMM into the mix. They throw up a few DMM and all of a sudden the BBEGs suddenly invest into the necromancy market. After all, if the cleric is foolish enough to use their turn undead attempts on foolish things like dispelable spells, I'll be glad to let the enemies invest in undead!

Proper use of Dispel magics and Undead really makes the players think about the consequences of DMM and they begin to realize that DMM isn't really worth it. I truly believe that DMM was brought into the game because DMs wetre underusing Undead and WotC needed to give some people a reason besides healing to play a cleric. [Nobody likes the label "band-aid, after all]

 

[Mistwell]

I agree. I don't use nightsticks, either.

However, I've no problem with DMM or persistant. A character so specialized is going to be easily defeated by enemies. Don't think they'll be able to do a tiny bit of research and find out what completely foils the cleric?

Actually, as a DM I kind of enjoy when players contemplate throwing DMM into the mix. They throw up a few DMM and all of a sudden the BBEGs suddenly invest into the necromancy market. After all, if the cleric is foolish enough to use their turn undead attempts on foolish things like dispelable spells, I'll be glad to let the enemies invest in undead!

Proper use of Dispel magics and Undead really makes the players think about the consequences of DMM and they begin to realize that DMM isn't really worth it. I truly believe that DMM was brought into the game because DMs wetre underusing Undead and WotC needed to give some people a reason besides healing to play a cleric. [Nobody likes the label "band-aid, after all]

Last I checked, clerics were not feat-oriented characters to begin with. You still have almost all your spells at your disposal, and good weapons, and heavy armor, and decent saves. There are a ton of anti-undead spells at your disposal. It's pretty rare that a cleric suddenly sucks if a few of his feats don't apply to a situation, or his lack of turn attempts means he is suddenly not useful.

I really think this is a ploy used by folks trying to sneak this incredibly abusive combo into the game...claiming that it "uses too many resources". It's NOT using that many resources. Three feats and your turn attempts isn't going to kill your cleric! You still have lots of room to develop your character, and lots and lots of power. You're still a cleric! You still have most of the best buff spells in the game, plenty of direct damage spells, great AC, decent HP, good saves, spontaneous healing, good utlity spells, a decent BAB, decent weapons, etc...