DMs against the Magical Wal-Mart

Is it possible to use gold and 'item shops' in the abstract and be okay with it?

A treasure worth 5,000 gold isn't just going to be a pile of gold. Gems, magic items, arts and crafts....the same thing can be said of a transaction involving them. An exchange of a +1 club for, say, 10 potions of cure light wounds.....all the 'magic shop' that needs to exist is glossing over the effort of finding it, convincing the merchant, etc. If you want a bit of randomness, include a Diplomacy check or Gather Information check (or both) to find a merchant and not get ripped off. The Gather Info DC can be set higher for more expensive stuff.

Basically, it's all in the interest of glossing over the hundreds of instances in which PC's want to sell their stuff to get back to the meat of the plot....
 

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Whisper72 said:
First off, it is not a matter of hating shops or not, but the type of campaign world. If heroes are a rare breed, then magic is prolly rare as well. If your average square mile contains three temples of elemental evil being 'camped' by twenty odd different adventuring groups taking turns to get in, you'll prolly have craploads of magic floating around which'll eventually end up at the local Magic Mart / Everything for a Dollar store.
My take on this is if the PCs have access to mid-high levels (say 7th+) and have a reasonable expectation of attaining them, then why not the NPCs? I assume that most of those NPCs of reasonably high levels are not adventurers...The town high priest is a 7th level cleric, the master of the local academy is a 10th level bard, the Thane of the local clan is a 8th level fighter. These guys don't go off "adventuring", they make their livings (and earn their XP) doing more mundane things.

What makes the PCs "heroic" is they're willingness to go risk their necks in pursuit of whatever it is they're pursuing.

As for a PC saying 'I built my character around an axe', what nonsense. Learn to improvise. Be a little flexible. And, in my own opinion, what a qaint way to build a PC.
See...as a player, this would completely hack me off. Just because you're the DM, who the heck are you to tell me the right way (other than for game balance reasons) to make my PC. If I want to build a character that is an expert with a battleaxe and hope to one day *gasp* get a battle axe suitable to my character, what exactly is wrong with that?

Sure, I can be flexible. But if I've accumulated 20,000gp worth of treasure and magic items and I'd like to sell them and/or trade them for a weapon of my choosing, what's the big deal?

Does s/he have an axe fetish? Sure, maybe s/he likes the axe best, has all kinds of feats around it, well, go around trying to trade your +1 sword you just found for a +1 axe, in the meantime, either save the sword for trading or use it when necessary. Sheesh...

Right...but since going around RPing trying to trade and sell magic items is extraordinarily boring, why not just let the PCs trade, sell, buy magic items during downtime between adventures? You don't have to assume there is a magic "Walmart"...the PCs know a merchant who knows a guy who can get what they want made for them...at a price, of course. It's the player's character. Why do you care if he trades sells that +2 longsword for 3000gp and buys himself a +1 battle axe and a couple of potions? It's all good.
 

Pants said:
Because, I think at some point, 'more gold' becomes pretty damn meaningless.

What is the point of money if you can't buy anything with it? Oh sure, at lower levels PCs need money just to survive (to buy food and basic transportation and what not). But once the PCs start building up the cash levels (say 5,000+ gp) treasure become meaningless. To the player, it is either useful magic items (or can be converted to usefule magic items) or it may as well be a pile of lead.

What is the difference between the PCs commissioning the building of a ship for 20,000gp (or whatever it would cost) or commissioning the manufacture of a magic item they want for the same amount? Every time the PCs need to buy rations and horses, do you make them go track down a suitable merchant or do you just tell them what it costs and move on? What's the difference if they want to buy a few scrolls and potions? I see none really.
 

ph0rk said:
Specializing in a weapon is a great sacrifice, and there should be times that the character has to think about weapon choice. Your greatsword wielder should keep a backup greatclub anyway, just in case there are an clay golems around the corner...

Why would I? I'm playing a Half-Orc Barbarian in one campaign and he is all about using his Great Sword. He's never run into a Clay Golem or any other creature that his sword can't handle so why would he bother carrying a weapon to defeat a monster that he doesn't know about. Besides... it is wrong for the character. Most likely he'd attack the Clay Golem with his bare hands. Is it a bad idea from a game mechanics view? Yep! Am I playing in character by doing it? Yep again! He also doesn't carry a ranged weapon because that isn't his style. He is far more likely to find the nearest rock and chuck it at someone if he can't reach them on foot (If they were flying perhaps).

I personally frown on characters who carry weapons for every eventuality.
 

Uller said:
What is the point of money if you can't buy anything with it? Oh sure, at lower levels PCs need money just to survive (to buy food and basic transportation and what not). But once the PCs start building up the cash levels (say 5,000+ gp) treasure become meaningless. To the player, it is either useful magic items (or can be converted to usefule magic items) or it may as well be a pile of lead.

What is the difference between the PCs commissioning the building of a ship for 20,000gp (or whatever it would cost) or commissioning the manufacture of a magic item they want for the same amount? Every time the PCs need to buy rations and horses, do you make them go track down a suitable merchant or do you just tell them what it costs and move on? What's the difference if they want to buy a few scrolls and potions? I see none really.

There really isn't any problem with it. And money is still worth what it is worth, regardless of how much you have of it. Magical research is VERY exepnsive - a wizard will always want more money to finance it. Especially if that is all they do, along with item creation, which is also very expensive.

Just because something glows when you cast detect magic on it, doesn't mean it is all that valuable to a wizard. Gold, on the other hand, is universal. That's why money economies are ALWAYS superior to barter. Universal exchange.
 


ph0rk said:
Weapon availability is one of the pitfalls of being a specialist. Sure, you rock with your chosen weapon, but there will be times when there is a slightly better weapon available to you that doesn't fit your specialty. (You'll likely still have better numbers with your chosen weapon).

That depends on the weapon. If the character chooses an unusual exotic weapon to specialize in, then likely finding that weapon for sale, whether normal, masterwork or magical will be harder than finding a more common weapon.

But in the case of say, a longsword (which damn near most fighters IME wield and specialize in), if the DM says, "I'm going to make this weapon harder to find," my gut reaction is that he's trying to nerf the player.

I am very much in favor of standard random loot tables; I beleive that is what was intended and that CRs are calculated with that in mind.

If players are allowed to pick and choose their magic items too much they will end up more powerful (by a wide margin) than they would have been if they had to go with the luck of the draw.

No, the intent of treasure generation is for the DM to choose what the players find, that's why there are average values for treasure levels. Random generation is there so DMs can quickly roll up a treasure if needed. Yes, I prefer to roll treasure, and I keep rolled results for coins, gems, etc. But I never use a completely random magic item. I'll roll on the tables until I get a result I want to put in the game, usually something the players can use, and something that looks interesting to me and seems more or less balanced for the party.

Specializing in a weapon is a great sacrifice, and there should be times that the character has to think about weapon choice. Your greatsword wielder should keep a backup greatclub anyway, just in case there are an clay golems around the corner...

That's true enough, a good fighter prepares himself for whatever he might face. And occasionally the party should face challenges they might not be openly prepared to overcome.

But OTOH, it's cheap for the DM to throw nothing but monsters that have damage reduction against the player's weapon because the DM didn't like the fact the player picked specializtion.
 

Pants said:
Because, I think at some point, 'more gold' becomes pretty damn meaningless. Say you have a 15th level Wizard who has heaps upon heaps of valuable (but nonmagical) treasures left over from his adventuring days. Now place this Wizard in a campaign setting where making magical items is extremely difficult. Mr. Wizard has nothing besides real estate and perhaps some other slightly expensive commodities to spend his heap of treasure on.

Well, in the case of a wizard, he could probably be plunking a lot of the gold down on a library to research spells (unless the DM decides to make that rare too.) Sure, he'll have wealth, he'll be spending a good chunk of that on research.

"More gold" becomes even more meaningless if you're talking about a 15th level fighter or barbarian. Unless that character has become a ruler of some sort, and needs that money to run his realm, then he's gonna have a lot of cash he can't spend. After all, ale and whores only cost so much. :D
 
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Syntallah said:
I DM for a group that happens to like a medium to high magic campaign in the new D&D3.5 system, and I am generally OK with that (this is NOT a discussion on low vs high!). However, I am very much against the whole "magical Wal-Mart" idea wherein the PCs can merely go into a shop and spend their gold to get whatever they want.

How do some of you DMs out there handle this sort of situation?


Urbis is a "high-magic" setting, so naturally I had to adress this - especially since the Nexus Towers make enchanting magic items rather easy (for those In Charge, that is). However, it seems unlikely that rulers would just allow any random adventurer go and buy Magic Items of Mass Destruction, so there had to be some sort of restriction...

The answer to this question is Spell Legality. For most spells - and appropriate magic items - you need a licence to legally use or purchase them. I've used the following categories:

Legal: The spell can be freely cast by anyone who knows it without fear of legal repercussions.
These spells have mostly fairly harmless effects, or effects that are solely centered on the spellcaster himself.
CL: Civilian licence. The spell can be cast by a registered spellcaster for his personal use only. He may not charge money for casting it - that requires a professional licence. Anyone, whether citizen of a city-state or a visitor, may get a civilian licence, though convicted felons are usually denied one. A civilian licence costs 25 gp times the highest spell level squared. So someone who wants a licence to cast up to third-level civilian spells would have to pay 25 gp x 3 x 3=225 gp.
These spells might be used for mischief, but the government trusts responsible citizens to use them correctly (and usually, those who apply for such a licence are lectured on what constitutes "correct usage" and what doesn't).
PL: Professional licence: This is required to charge money for spellcasting services, as well as being allowed to cast professional spells. A civilian licence is required to purchase a professional licence, and professional licence costs 50 gp times the highest spell level squared.
It is also possible to purchase professional licences for single schools of magic. This costs 10 gp times the highest spell level squared. Professional licences for a single spell cost 5 gp times the spell level squared.
Holders of professional licences must usually give a full list of all the spells they are able to cast to the authorities. These spells either hold potential for abuse or are a major money-maker for organisationed spellcasters, and as such are tightly monitored. Also included are a number of offensive spells that bodyguards and other non-military or non-guard professionals might require in their line of work
ML: Military licence: These spells are usually only legal for military forces, city guards, and similar organisations. In some cases, mercenary company may get licences for their own combat spellcasters, in which case the licence costs then company 50 gp times the highest spell level squared. Private individuals may be able to get military licences if they join a city's reserve forces. In this case, the licence doesn't cost them anything, but they must join military exercises (which usually last for a week and take place two times a year on average), and they will be drafted in times of war.
These spells have vast potential for abuse, and are often hard to justify to use in a civilian context. Examples include spells that cause devastation in a large area such as fireball, spells that deny the target its free will, such as charm person, or spells that might help wanted criminals to avoid the authorities, such as alter self.
Banned: These spells are illegal to cast for anyone with the possible exception of trusted government agents (and even then it often must be kept a secret from the general population). In some rare cases private individuals or non-government organisations may be granted permission to cast these spells, but there is no fixed price for this - it usually requires hefty bribes combined with huge favors for those in power.
Banned spells include those that create undead, permanently slay the living (i.e., those that prevent the victims from being raised), and anything that might significantly alter the status quo, such as wish.


So basically, if you want the good stuff, either register at your friendly neighborhood government office and pay for the privilege, join the militia, or go to the black market...
 
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Altalazar said:
There really isn't any problem with it. And money is still worth what it is worth, regardless of how much you have of it. Magical research is VERY exepnsive - a wizard will always want more money to finance it. Especially if that is all they do, along with item creation, which is also very expensive.

Just because something glows when you cast detect magic on it, doesn't mean it is all that valuable to a wizard. Gold, on the other hand, is universal. That's why money economies are ALWAYS superior to barter. Universal exchange.

Not necessarily.

Remember, a 9th level spell, costs only ~ 9,000 gp to research (unless spell research got changed in 3.5). Magical Item Crafting is far more expensive than spell research. Spell Seed research is a different matter, admittantly.

Further, if you consider the 'wealth' of parties at 20th, a rather nice and legitimate point is made at the sheer abundance of wealth/gold coins that results in near immediate deflation of the value medium.

Also, I do agree with the premise that magical items don't have an inherit value past their 'task'/'usefulness' (ie, Quall's Feather Tokens are not a valued trade medium, pretty much ever).

Personally I don't worry too much about it, there are a couple places where folks can have item crafting commissioned (the logic failure of XP burn for NPCs isn't lost on me, I just chose to abstract it out).
 

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