DM's Delema: To kill or not to kill
- Thread starter asdel
- Start date
genshou
First Post
Note, however, that there are a number of other spells which can do what you want. Scrying spells, particularly scrying itself and its big brother greater scrying are a lot more difficult to block when the party is in the wilderness, at least if they haven't cast certain spells on themselves to protect from scrying...Saeviomagy said:
Percivellian
First Post
asdel said:
I've learned the lesson of giving dilemmas like this to my players the hard way. A DM holding onto a preconceived idea of a 'right' and a 'wrong' choice, or even a 'superior' and 'inferior' choice is a recipe for some discontentment, at the least.
In the game, the characters are faced with a serious choice, and the players are thinking on it seriously. They will ultimately choose what they think is best after all considerations have been made. Now, in a situation like this, they already feel screwed from both sides. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. It's either lose a party member, or face what this Queen is telling them is a TPK. Being that this is a situation of DM's creation, it's the DM's job to pull them out of "I feel screwed" territory, and not dangle a knifepoint above their heads. Whatever choice they make should be rewarded at this point because these levels of moral ground are ultimately subjective constructions of the mind, and the players may not see it the same way as the DM.
I like Badger's line from the pilot episode in Firefly: "Crime and politics, love. Situation is always: fluid." Same thing here, only it changes to - Behind the DM's screen, the situation is always fluid. As we run our games, we get these grand visions and think, "Man, that's gonna be so cool." But our players aren't aware of our plans and sometimes they don't fall right into them. One of the most important skills a DM can have is the ability to, at the drop of a hat, change (or just plain get rid of) all their grand visions to ensure that the game stays fun for the players, because really, DM's don't tend to have fun if they players aren't enjoying themselves.
The thing about having your players feeling caught between a rock and a hard place now is that it's a sure bet they'll be pretty damn happy when things unexpectedly turn in their favour. The trick, of course, is to not make this feel like you're going easy on them, or just swooping in and fixing things for them. There are plenty of ways to do this, but you have to make sure it happens.
Good luck. I'm still curious as to how it will play out, and how your players will react.
Again, thanks for the feedback.
The game session is next week, next Thursday.
I am considering having not the inquisition but rather the shadowmen spying on the Ranger and the Fey Queen. The fey later attack the PCs (because they are paid to) with the jealous and vindictive Fey Queen exacting her wrath on the ranger who rejected her.
Meanwhile, the shadowmen loop round and flank the fey. They are annoyed at the duplicity of the fey, for considering turning sides, and their leader is outraged that the fey queen dare look at another man.
It has all the making of a grand, chaotic melee. The fey are toast, and then the battle betwen the shadowmen and the PCs comes to a conclusion. It appeals to me sence of the Epic Battle. (As a player, I lean towards action, and that is reflected in my GMing.)
From story-telling perspective, it enforces the age-old theme that evil turns on itself, something I hope to use a few times before the ultimate finale.
Still, having the inquisition come to the PCs aid has a lot of merit. I'd envisioned a confrontation between the PCs and the Inquisition in the future, with the inquisition as rather reactionary villians. But, given my group of characters' penchant for revenge and general distracted-ness, it might make sense to give up this story line to focus on the shadowmen.
Finally, I've given some thought to having a group of druids waltz in and present themselves as allies. Perhaps they are tipped off by the good fey, or a prophetic dream. In context of this email, this probably doesn't make much sence, but it would be a reward or pat on the back for the cleric of nature, a character who's player is a good solid member and is deserving of a bit of special attention. This would also give me the option to introduce a potential patron.
Thanks
Mike
The game session is next week, next Thursday.
I am considering having not the inquisition but rather the shadowmen spying on the Ranger and the Fey Queen. The fey later attack the PCs (because they are paid to) with the jealous and vindictive Fey Queen exacting her wrath on the ranger who rejected her.
Meanwhile, the shadowmen loop round and flank the fey. They are annoyed at the duplicity of the fey, for considering turning sides, and their leader is outraged that the fey queen dare look at another man.
It has all the making of a grand, chaotic melee. The fey are toast, and then the battle betwen the shadowmen and the PCs comes to a conclusion. It appeals to me sence of the Epic Battle. (As a player, I lean towards action, and that is reflected in my GMing.)
From story-telling perspective, it enforces the age-old theme that evil turns on itself, something I hope to use a few times before the ultimate finale.
Still, having the inquisition come to the PCs aid has a lot of merit. I'd envisioned a confrontation between the PCs and the Inquisition in the future, with the inquisition as rather reactionary villians. But, given my group of characters' penchant for revenge and general distracted-ness, it might make sense to give up this story line to focus on the shadowmen.
Finally, I've given some thought to having a group of druids waltz in and present themselves as allies. Perhaps they are tipped off by the good fey, or a prophetic dream. In context of this email, this probably doesn't make much sence, but it would be a reward or pat on the back for the cleric of nature, a character who's player is a good solid member and is deserving of a bit of special attention. This would also give me the option to introduce a potential patron.
Thanks
Mike
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Well done, Asdel!
I dunno, the problem with your solution, asdel, as compared to most of the others is that you don't even give the appearance of player choice or actions making a difference.
It sounds like you have it all scripted out how you'll get the players out of the mess you forced them into -- and whatever they do doesn't matter.
It is a fine line between saying "you put them in an unwinnable situation, you have to get them out" and saying "you are reducing them to spectators in an NPC drama." But I think you are on the wrong side now, because what matters is not whether you actually do save their bacon, but whether you make it look like their actions and choices have some effect.
In the scenario you described, the player characters don't do anything, and your solution plays itself out. Even if you do choose one of the "every path leads to salvation" scenarios presented in this thread so far (most of which I enjoyed reading about), they at least allow the players to make a choices or have the actions dependent upon THEIR actions, their bravery, their moral stance, or whatever.
In the one you've proposed, it seems fully dependent upon the NPCs' choices, and the players are just watching. Which is poor DMing, because then it becomes just performance art instead of interactive performance.
You need to let the players' actions matter for more here. You need to at least give the APPEARANCE that their choices matter (which is really what GMing is all about) and you need to make sure that they understand that's what's expected of them.
It sounds like you have it all scripted out how you'll get the players out of the mess you forced them into -- and whatever they do doesn't matter.
It is a fine line between saying "you put them in an unwinnable situation, you have to get them out" and saying "you are reducing them to spectators in an NPC drama." But I think you are on the wrong side now, because what matters is not whether you actually do save their bacon, but whether you make it look like their actions and choices have some effect.
In the scenario you described, the player characters don't do anything, and your solution plays itself out. Even if you do choose one of the "every path leads to salvation" scenarios presented in this thread so far (most of which I enjoyed reading about), they at least allow the players to make a choices or have the actions dependent upon THEIR actions, their bravery, their moral stance, or whatever.
In the one you've proposed, it seems fully dependent upon the NPCs' choices, and the players are just watching. Which is poor DMing, because then it becomes just performance art instead of interactive performance.
You need to let the players' actions matter for more here. You need to at least give the APPEARANCE that their choices matter (which is really what GMing is all about) and you need to make sure that they understand that's what's expected of them.
Kynn said:
OK, I think I see what you're driving at. Let's look the options:
1) The PCs bargin with the queen, and the upcoming fight gets real lop-side and short. The cost: a deal with the devil.
2) The PCs won't bargin with her, and the upcoming fight becomes real lop-sided and short, but aginst the PCs.
Option Two seems likely.
If I have the inquisition conveinently appear, Ta-Da, they save the day and then they can say "Because you refused to deal, you've exhonorated yourself."
If I have the shadowmen turn on the fey, then it doesn't really matter what the PCs say. That "action" they did was the very minor agree only to talk to the Fey Queen.
(Sorry I had to summarized this like this, I had to go get the cause and effect worked out. It can be hard to see these things from the different angles sometimes.)
Well, I guess I am off to spend an morning with PCGen making Inquisitors...
the Jester
Legend
Argonel said:
To me- and YMMV- a 'do-over' ruins any sense of danger in the game. No danger means no challenge. No challenge means no fun.
I'd TPK my group's favorite characters a dozen times over first.
DM's Delema Resolved
Thanks for everyone's input. I value it, and it helped me fashion a satisfying adventure.
First, I toned down the fey queen's stance a bit. Her original position was rather strict: give yourself up to me, Elf Ranger. This would go against his chaotic good alignment in both directions. But the ranger was willing to accept a mutual offer: the sidhe queen helps the PCs now, but then they have to agree to return with her to free her castle from the demon which displaced her. The only caviat: the entire party must help, not just the Ranger. The ranger aggreed to this, but then a performance of a life-time convincing his fellows to go along.
Second, I kept the inquisition-as-rescuers in my back pocket. I wanted to reintroduce a patron from the first first adventure, a duchess. Just as Pervillain suggested, duchess scryed and witnessed the sidhe confession. The actual inquistion still thinks the PCs did it, so I've thrust a powerful enemy in the PCs lap, but at the same time, I want to give them an ally and safe haven with the duchess' city.
Third, I lef the fey queen drop enough of a clue as to how the PCs where being tracked that they could set up a bit of an ambush: the halfing has taken a silver orb.
I'd presented a few locatations, an open druids cirlce, a wooded valley, a butte, and a cave, to fight from. This allowed the PCs to pick their grounds.
Our heroes set up an ambush, with stuffed bed rolls and the halfing in the center, and the PCs on the edge.
Overall the battle as a lot of fun. Managing the 6 shadow men, the sidhe queen her lesser troops, lesser allied shadowmen, and summoned creatures was a lot to keep track of. The PCs were sufficiantly challenged but not overwhelmed. All though-out, horns where playing, signally someone approaching from the south. (GM-wise, I should have had the horns come from the west, becuase the PCs pretty much assumed it was a rescue party.)
My only regret was that I allowed the Sidhe queen to end the battle by employing a Baleful Polymorph against the remained Shadowman, the Boss monster. "All men are pigs", she yelled, and *bamph* he was a pig. I would have preferred to allow the PCs to defeat him. Really, this was a mini version of the same issues of PC action vs. NPC rescue and Realism vs. Fair. But what I do to adjust/cheat before play beings is different than what I do once play starts. Like redos, I avoid fudging rolls.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
Thanks for everyone's input. I value it, and it helped me fashion a satisfying adventure.
First, I toned down the fey queen's stance a bit. Her original position was rather strict: give yourself up to me, Elf Ranger. This would go against his chaotic good alignment in both directions. But the ranger was willing to accept a mutual offer: the sidhe queen helps the PCs now, but then they have to agree to return with her to free her castle from the demon which displaced her. The only caviat: the entire party must help, not just the Ranger. The ranger aggreed to this, but then a performance of a life-time convincing his fellows to go along.
Second, I kept the inquisition-as-rescuers in my back pocket. I wanted to reintroduce a patron from the first first adventure, a duchess. Just as Pervillain suggested, duchess scryed and witnessed the sidhe confession. The actual inquistion still thinks the PCs did it, so I've thrust a powerful enemy in the PCs lap, but at the same time, I want to give them an ally and safe haven with the duchess' city.
Third, I lef the fey queen drop enough of a clue as to how the PCs where being tracked that they could set up a bit of an ambush: the halfing has taken a silver orb.
I'd presented a few locatations, an open druids cirlce, a wooded valley, a butte, and a cave, to fight from. This allowed the PCs to pick their grounds.
Our heroes set up an ambush, with stuffed bed rolls and the halfing in the center, and the PCs on the edge.
Overall the battle as a lot of fun. Managing the 6 shadow men, the sidhe queen her lesser troops, lesser allied shadowmen, and summoned creatures was a lot to keep track of. The PCs were sufficiantly challenged but not overwhelmed. All though-out, horns where playing, signally someone approaching from the south. (GM-wise, I should have had the horns come from the west, becuase the PCs pretty much assumed it was a rescue party.)
My only regret was that I allowed the Sidhe queen to end the battle by employing a Baleful Polymorph against the remained Shadowman, the Boss monster. "All men are pigs", she yelled, and *bamph* he was a pig. I would have preferred to allow the PCs to defeat him. Really, this was a mini version of the same issues of PC action vs. NPC rescue and Realism vs. Fair. But what I do to adjust/cheat before play beings is different than what I do once play starts. Like redos, I avoid fudging rolls.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
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