DM's: How do you deal with powergamers?

[Oryan77]

I've been DM'ing a pretty good powergamer for the last 6 months and I'm just looking for advice on how to deal with it.

I'll start off by saying that I'm more of a storyteller DM myself. That's what excites me the most and I really like when players get heavily into roleplaying with my NPC's. I've become pretty good with my rules knowledge, I'm an average strategic player during combat, & I'm not much of a powergamer...I prefer to build a cool character concept that's still strong rather than spending a lot of time figuring out the most powerful combo build I can come up with.

A problem that I'm starting to worry about as we get higher level is balancing issues & also making sure my NPC's can handle themselves against attacks.

I just don't have time to sit infront of a stack of D&D books, read every spell & feat, & then work out really good combos for buffs & attacks....which is what this powergamer does. First I had to deal with the fact that NPC's can't hit him in melee/ranged attacks due to his 30 AC. Every so often I have to deal with him "easily" hitting NPC's & also dealing huge amounts of damage due to various buffing combos he's come up with.

Powergaming is what he enjoys about D&D, so I don't want to just tell him he can't use this spell & that. I have figured out a few weak points of his that I can abuse, but it feels cheap if all my NPC's always deal with him the same way. But I'm also getting tired of having to come up with ways to deal with his powergaming. With all of the other PC's, I can just think to myself, "these NPC's can deal melee damage, or cast these spells to damage them, or use these spells to cripple them. Or I already know what those PC's will use in a fight, so the NPC's can try to deal with it.

But with the powergaming Cleric, it's always a surprise for what he'll do because it seems like he reads the spells on a daily basis trying to see what other powergaming combos he can do the next session.

Another problem is balancing issues. I don't like creating encounters several levels higher than I normally would just to make it challenging since there's a powergaming cleric in the group. When I don't do that, they blow through the encounter. When I do raise the level, the other PC's are at a much higher disadvantage. This causes me to hold back during the fight because I feel like I made an unfair encounter for the PC's and I don't want to kill anyone due to my misjudgement.

It's getting to the point now though that I'm dealing with powergaming every game and it's a little annoying now. I don't have time to build such efficient NPC's and I'm starting to want to take off the gloves and just start using NPC's that will dish out that kind of damage and be as hard to hit so they can get a taste of it. But an NPC like that would need to be a much higher CR NPC to get the same AC/Attacks the cleric does because I don't have time to powergame an equal levelled NPC and I don't just dump magic items on NPC's to boost their fighting prowess.

But this turns it into a DM vs Player situation and I definately don't want to go there! I just don't know how to make myself less annoyed about not being able to attack one player like I do the other players. How does everyone put up with powergamers?

 

[FickleGM]

I no longer game with one and I married the other...

This actually happened in one of my campaigns a few years back (none of the players are the two mentioned above, but they still optimized). When the campaign got over 10th level, it kept running into more problems, as the wizard player was able to optimize his character better than the NPCs. Eventually, I told them that it wasn't fun anymore and we stopped that campaign.

To me, this plays into Wulf's sweet spot argument, as well. When in the "sweet spot", I was more comfortable and able to provide ample challenges. Once we went past it, the campaign lagged. I couldn't provide the challenge that they needed and the game suffered.

I would suggest talking to him. Maybe he'd be willing to dial it back a notch. My wizard player was willing to do that for subsequent characters, because he knew that I wasn't having fun and that for something to challenge him it would obliterate the other characters or negate his abilities.

 

[havoclad]

Without the particulars of the characters and the combos he is using, its hard to give specific advice. That won't stop me from trying though.

I think you need to have an OOG conversation with him. First, ask if there are things that he has willingly decided not to play because they are too strong. The intent is to figure out if he is a powergamer or a munchkin. A munchkin is a legitimate problem and requires a different tactic.

If you have a powergamer, congratulations. You have a player who is willingly investing a large amount of effort to play in your game. This is a good thing! You just need to lay down a few ground rules.

Ask him to warn you about his new cool combos before game night. This gives you a chance to look them over. Tell him that you dislike having to stop an exciting combat to get his version of how the combo works and how the rules interact. With advance notice, you can troll the internets. Odds are the combo has been seen before.

See if he is willing to create some NPC's for you to use. This will limit the time he has to spend on his own character, while giving you some cool options to use against him. Most real powergamers can't resist showing off. Just make sure you tweak one or two things so that he is surprised a bit by his own creation.

Try to get him involved in helping other characters with their PC's. If you have only one powergamer, odds are that the power discrepency between the players is a source of concern.

If a few particular combos are really annoying you, talk to him about them. See if he has any solutions. A powergamer should be open to discussions about changing the rules or even banning a few things to keep the game balanced.

 

[Anti-Sean]

With power tools.

 

[Raloc]

I'd also suggest throwing other types of challenges at the party. Throw some social challenges or trap/maze/puzzle based stuff at them so they have to think and interact with the game world in non-combat ways that will let the whole group shine in their areas (put in lots of skill checks for everyone).

Also, for your NPCs, I'd suggest winging it some. Get a good list of abilties that can counter his combos and when he starts showing off some, throw one or two of them out along with an environmental hazard, and then you can throw your other NPCs at the other players while the powergamer is occupied. You might try fudging rolls some when it seems appropriate. If the setup for some NPC opposing powergamer cleric is really nice and dramatic, and you roll and he fails, make him succeed anyway once in a while.

 

[Oryan77]

The intent is to figure out if he is a powergamer or a munchkin. If you have a powergamer, congratulations.

He's definately a powergamer. None of his tactics are annoying or lame. Most of them are pretty slick. I am actually very grateful to have him in the group because when the players are in a tight spot, he always comes up with a way to help the group out with a spell. I've been on the opposite end where a cleric player wouldn't even know he could restore someones lost ability points :\ so this is nice.

Ask him to warn you about his new cool combos before game night.

I actually suggested this to him last weekend. So far I'm doing the right thing

Try to get him involved in helping other characters with their PC's.

Actually, he's been annoying about this. He already powergamed his wifes PC, but she doesn't know enough about the game to really take advantage of things. She's really effective at archery, but that's about it. I can still thwart her PC without bending over backwards to do so.

Our sorcereress player on the other hand is getting annoyed by his constant "advice". She's a casual gamer and prefers roleplaying. She tries to perform well in combats, but his constant suggestions are getting on her nerves. What's worse is they are all levelling this week and he made several comments last session about the spell she needs to learn. He said it so many times during the game that it's as if he's trying to build her character for her in order to powergame the entire group. The last time she levelled I appreciated his help, but now that I see the impact of powergaming, I'm not thrilled about letting him give her advice. I told her we'll level her up before the game so he won't bother her with spell selection suggestions.

Thanks for the advice, it was great!

 

[Lorgrom]

He's definately a powergamer. None of his tactics are annoying or lame. Most of them are pretty slick. I am actually very grateful to have him in the group because when the players are in a tight spot, he always comes up with a way to help the group out with a spell. I've been on the opposite end where a cleric player wouldn't even know he could restore someones lost ability points :\ so this is nice.

I actually suggested this to him last weekend. So far I'm doing the right thing

Actually, he's been annoying about this. He already powergamed his wifes PC, but she doesn't know enough about the game to really take advantage of things. She's really effective at archery, but that's about it. I can still thwart her PC without bending over backwards to do so.

Our sorcereress player on the other hand is getting annoyed by his constant "advice". She's a casual gamer and prefers roleplaying. She tries to perform well in combats, but his constant suggestions are getting on her nerves. What's worse is they are all levelling this week and he made several comments last session about the spell she needs to learn. He said it so many times during the game that it's as if he's trying to build her character for her in order to powergame the entire group. The last time she levelled I appreciated his help, but now that I see the impact of powergaming, I'm not thrilled about letting him give her advice. I told her we'll level her up before the game so he won't bother her with spell selection suggestions.

Thanks for the advice, it was great!

You bring up a very good point about powergamers. Powergamers are more then just what the character is able to do. It is also a mind set. As a powergamer myself. I have to hold back most of the time, or I end up taking over the campaign. Why not challenge the player and to see how well he can play without taking the spot light from everyone else. Don't feel bad when he does save the day. But reward him in suddle ways when he backs off and lets the others be the stars.

 

[Ourph]

If your player is a good guy, maybe have an OOG conversation with him and suggest ways to handicap his character compared to the others without limiting his powergaming "needs". For example, would he be willing to accept a point buy character with a lower point buy total than the other non-powergamers in the group? Would he be willing to drop a level?

It seems to me that a lot of powergamers enjoy the challenge of wringing the absolute most from their character's abilities as they possibly can. If so, accepting a handicap just gives this player a greater challenge than the rest of the group (which he should be up to if he's that much better than the others at min/maxing his character).

By giving him a handicap vs. the other players you can reduce his overall ability to imbalance the party without having to force him to change his playstyle and exploration of new rules combinations. You might be able to make the deal sweeter by phrasing it as a badge of honor, i.e. "John is such a great and skillful player that I've asked him to play a 28pt character while the rest of you play 32pt characters just so everyone else - including me - can keep up with him."

 

[Raloc]

Oh, you could also throw some guys with Disjunction scrolls at the cleric guy, if he uses a lot of magic items (hehe...).

 

[Seeten]

Clerics are very capable of making the will save that disjunction forces. Sadly, the fighters and archers and rogues are utterly destroyed by this spell, so Raloc's suggestion may be the worst possible idea.(hehe...).