DM's: How do you deal with powergamers?

[frankthedm]

I've been DM'ing a pretty good powergamer for the last 6 months and I'm just looking for advice on how to deal with it.

Each spell from a book outside the core rules costs 1000k in GP per spell level to research. The player does not find out if you ok the spell until he starts paying GP. This is in the DMG. Use it.

I just don't have time to sit infront of a stack of D&D books, read every spell & feat, & then work out really good combos for buffs & attacks....which is what this powergamer does.

If you just allow anything in a Wotc book, you write a powergamer a blank check.

Powergaming is what he enjoys about D&D, so I don't want to just tell him he can't use this spell & that. I have figured out a few weak points of his that I can abuse, but it feels cheap if all my NPC's always deal with him the same way.

He builds cheap, you fight cheap.

But with the powergaming Cleric, it's always a surprise for what he'll do because it seems like he reads the spells on a daily basis trying to see what other powergaming combos he can do the next session.

You let the spells in.

 

[painandgreed]

So long as everybody is having fun, i don't really worry about it. There are powergamers in RL, from min/maxed jocks to one trick wonders on UFC, so i don't worry about when they show up in game. I usually reward good use of spells and rules by letting them get away with it. My one big threat is that if they start using any trick too much, then I'll use it against them too. So, see what combos of spells and such he's using and have the NPCs use them also. Also, power gamers tend to be good in one area and poor in others, so hit him there. If he's a combat monster, hit them with traps or puzzles. Better yet, hit him with roleplay situations. You could also develop enemy groups with powerful leader that targets him and lesser minions that target the others. If you really want to even the odds, pull in another person to play the monsters. Chances are, a person who doesn't have to be unbiased can take that CR they would normally breeze through and clean their clock with it.

 

[Raloc]

It may help to know specifically what types of strategies he's using. Good AC really becomes unimportant fast unless you can get it quite high. And even then you can just throw spells at him and mostly they won't have to deal with that at all. If he's really optimized for undead-killing, throw some different stuff at him, like constructs (also because he doesn't have a magic weapon) or other challenges that require interesting solutions (IMC, last week's game pitted the characters against a natural underwater encounter with a water naga and a bunch of eels (that have a 1d4/rnds blindness poison) by taking them out on the lake then having the naga slam the boat and requiring everyone to take reflex saves or be thrown into the drink). As far as balancing out the magic, I'd say go with your instincts and have him find mostly non-combat related stuff (maybe useful, but not directly useful to his powergaming obsession). Oh and pay attention to Delericho's #4 above. Sometimes "combos" that are quite powerful are just being used improperly in the extreme.

 

[Seeten]

This brings up another issue that I'm not comfortable with in our game. As a type of handicap as was suggested, I don't give this player the type of magical gear that gets him excited. It's actually pretty hard for me to figure out what kind of magic items to throw his way. So compared to everyone else, he really doesn't have the cool stuff like other players. I feel bad about that.

He puts me in a bind here. I don't want to give him the items that I would normally give a warrior cleric, because that will just boost up his power even more. But when I give him fun/interesting magic items, he doesn't care about them because they don't improve the areas he's working to powergame.

When he created the PC, he dumped all his starting gold into +2 full plate & +2 shield & other AC boosting items and selected a nonmagical weapon. He did this assuming it would be easier to find a good magical weapon than it would to find +2 full plate. So I take that as a player trying to get the DM to powergame his PC for him without realizing it.

Overall, it's so hard to give him any magical item because no matter what I give him that benefits a cleric, it means that's one less area that he needs to worry about powergaming. So his focus goes towards improving the other areas more. He hasn't openly complained about other player's getting cool items and he hasn't...I just don't want him to feel like I favor other players sooner or later.

Clerics are overpowered to begin with. Powergamed clerics are the most powerful characters in the game, bar none. I'd argue they are better by far than even natural spell druids. I wouldnt be afraid to give him a magic weapon, every swing with the weapon is one less spell he casts. He can only do one, or the other, in any given round, so the opportunity cost isnt worse, it just allows him to swing the weapon, which is actually good for you. Its easier to see the sword swings coming, than the brutal cleric spells.

My best advice is to get him to play a non spellcaster in the next game, as powergamed spellcasters are monstrously potent. For this game, I'd politely ask him to only help when its asked for, and to work with you to help the other players get some spotlight time too. Clerics are well able to craft their own magic items, if he chooses not to use feats that way, let him sell the items you give him to get what he wants, within reason.

Be wary of pearls of power, items that increase his CL, like prayer beads, and the like.

 

[Oryan77]

1) Encourage the rest of the players to likewise powergame their characters. This is necessary, or step 2 will backfire badly.

No one else has the time or cares that much about reading every inch of every book to build the most efficient character like he has. People just want to build a cool character and play it. There's no way I would ask everyone to start powergaming

4) Make sure you read up on his character's powers, and be sure to enforce the limitations of them. A lot of 'power-gamers' are actually cheats, in that they 'accidentally' forget that you can't stack two enhancement bonuses, or whatever. The game is generally reasonably good at balancing itself... provided you apply the limits. (You should do the same for all the characters, of course.)

This is one thing that's bugging me about DM'ing a powergamer. I don't want to do homework and review all of these aspects of a character just to make sure his insane combos aren't breaking any rules...but I realize I have to because I know guys that optimize like this always forget about issues like stacking rules or just plain common sense issues like "your nonmagical armor would break if you grew an extra pair of arms". :\

 

[Oryan77]

Each spell from a book outside the core rules costs 1000k in GP per spell level to research. The player does not find out if you ok the spell until he starts paying GP. This is in the DMG. Use it.

This is mentioned in the DMG? Do you know what page? Does this even count towards a Cleric that prays for spells?

That's another issue I've always wondered about but I let it slide since his spells help the group out a lot. Giving a cleric access to the Spell Compendium gives him an incredible amount of options that wizards/sorcerers don't really get to benefit from as much.

 

[Odysseus]

He hasn't openly complained about other player's getting cool items and he hasn't...I just don't want him to feel like I favor other players sooner or later.

I had a similar situation , where the power gamer left in a big ,loud, fit.
I'd have a chat with him. Before something goes wrong. The smart ideas, and solutions to difficult problems are an asset to everyone. But trying to mini/max other peoples characters can be annoying.

 

[frankthedm]

This is mentioned in the DMG? Do you know what page? Does this even count towards a Cleric that prays for spells?

DMG page 198.

That's another issue I've always wondered about but I let it slide since his spells help the group out a lot. Giving a cleric access to the Spell Compendium gives him an incredible amount of options that wizards/sorcerers don't really get to benefit from as much.

Giving clerics or druids the spell compendium as a blank check really can over power them. You really have to aprove those spells on a case by case basis.

Piratecat has a good houserule where a Cleric or druid has to give up one spell on the PHB list, to gain another spell from splat material.

 

[Oryan77]

Each spell from a book outside the core rules costs 1000k in GP per spell level to research. The player does not find out if you ok the spell until he starts paying GP. This is in the DMG. Use it.

DMG page 198.

Oh, you're referring to the Researching Original Spells info. I didn't think of that. How could I implement those rules for a person that simply prays for new spells? I can already hear the arguement, "All I should have to do is just ask my god for the power to do so-n-so...why would there be costs & research involved when praying to my god?"

 

[shilsen]

I don't think I saw this mentioned. What level are the PCs now?