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D&D (2024) DM's no longer getting crits on PC's

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I've long been frustrated by the inability to have an economy that makes a lick of sense. One character concept I've kept trying to play for many years now is a traveling merchant. However, the idea is so at odds with the systems I play in, that it usually either falls flat and does nothing, or worse, succeeds.

There was a 3.5 game where a friend and I decided to try being siblings who were merchants- I was a Sorcerer, and his character was a Wizard. At low levels, we relied on skill checks to appraise the value of items, haggle with prospective buyers, and so on. The DM eventually worked out a system for how much of a deal we could get on a successful "haggle" check, and since we were pretty good at it, we could almost guarantee being able to purchase things for 10-15% less, and sell them with the same markup.

Then we got into magic items, making and selling cheap items (or services, like everburning torches) that were affordable in large communities and also very useful.

We were happy making money, and sharing our wealth with our party (since we tended to ask them to make detours so we could find new things to buy, and new places to sell them).

But finally one day the DM asked to see our notes, where we kept a running tally of our net worth, and he sighed.

"Guys, I know you're having fun, and we agreed on the rules. You've even paid your Guild dues and taxes. But the fact is, you have so much money it's making it harder for me to run the game".

We pointed out several cash sinks we could invest in, like buying property, paying off a Duke to get minor titles, building a base of operations, and even a ship, but the DM then pointed out the realistic cost of such things was well within our reach, and then what?

At some point, we'd have nothing to do but sink vast wealth into crafting powerful magic items for the party, becoming too powerful for appropriate CR enemies.

And the easy solution, giving enemies magical gear of their own, was counter productive, since if we beat them, their wealth would increase our own exponentially.

So we had to retire our characters, and make new ones that paid full price for everything, and had nothing in our backpacks but lint and magical items. Very dissatisfying.

But we were talking about critical hits, lol.

So here's the thing- 5% of the time, a monster can theoretically deal double dice of damage. When that happens is not in the DM's control. It could happen during an epic boss battle, where suddenly the player is taking an extra 7d6 damage, or it can happen when fighting a mook, turning his d8+3 into 2d8+3.

So when you get right down to it, what percentage of DM crits are even really that impactful? 5e generally makes critical hits rare and tame, and only occasionally do the stars line up so that they can truly make a great impact on a battle.

For players, critical hits are generally pretty weak. Oh maybe you're a Battlemaster so you can get an extra die, or you have some trait to grant a bonus when you score a critical hit, but generally, there's three types of characters who overperform when they crit.

Paladins, assuming they haven't been forced to use up their smites in order to take out dangerous foes.

Rogues, who always have fistful of dice to work with.

And spellcasters, who don't tend to throw out a lot of attack roll spells to begin with.

It seems to me that critical hits are already pretty lopsided, as most monsters get multiple dice of damage, or can make more attacks than a party of level at or around their CR.

And even when players do roll a 20, it's only a big deal for certain characters anyways. I mean, what's an extra d8 damage anyways? Even a d12 is a lousy 6-7 points on average.

Most enemies have enough hit points that small amounts of bonus damage aren't really worth talking about. A big hit on a weak enemy is just a waste, which I'm sure happens fairly often.

Critical hits are just a bad mechanic, and always have been. We have them because somehow, rolling really well feels like it should let us "win more". Every once in a super moon, sure, there's that one crit that happened at that one time, that changed everything.

But is it really worth it to have a "one in a million" mechanic?

Maybe we should just have exploding damage dice instead, if we want dramatic moments to happen with any degree of regularity.

On the other hand, I do like the idea of getting a metagame coupon for when I roll well; then I can save it for a dramatic moment when I need a momentum shift, rather than hope I roll a natural 20 at an appropriate time.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It would help if D&D "economics" made any sense at all.
Agreed, though this is one area where I'm willing to let gamist concerns rear their heads just a bit. Why? Because I rather despise economics (both as a field of study and as practiced in our current society) in real life and don't want to have to deal with it in the game.
Then you could tell how much money someone might pay for a thing. Like, if the Duke wants a goblet that is everful of his favorite wine, how much should that thing cost?
That would depend on one or more of:
--- your item creation rules (homebrew, of course, if you're in a 5e environment)
--- whether anyone already has such a goblet and then whether it is available for purchase
--- the Duke's willingness and-or ability to pay the price requested by either the creator or the current owner.
Well, it depends on how much money the Duke has, whether these goblets are mass produced versus there being ONE such goblet, and how much effort it takes to get ones hands on said goblet.
The "how much money the Duke has" piece can be sticky, but the "how common are these goblets" piece is pure DM fiat and-or dice rolling. Does every member of the nobility have one? Or is this some hare-brained off-the-cuff idea of the Duke's in order to one-up the neighbouring Baron? The motivation (and depth thereof) behind why the Duke wants the goblet will go a long way toward determining what he's willing to pay and-or sacrifice for it.
But without functional economics, there's no reasonable place to start. If we knew how much money the Duke's subjects netted him in taxes, and how much money he paid for his army, that would be something. Hell if the price of a horse and a suit of armor made sense compared to the price of a bushel of grain and a barel of wine from three provinces over, we could have some idea. But because D&D has, over the years, abandoned anything even smelling like the hated "simulationism" we can't, because gold is just another metagame component that doesn't have any real correlation with the fiction world the PCs exist in because that world is just Hollywood sets anyway.
I agree D&D has rather sadly abandoned simulationism in many other areas but in this particular area I'm willing to live with a more fanciful system.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Terrible idea. Things are worth what people (players) are willing to pay. Let the players decide how much they value an item. “I really want that Vorpal Sword…I’ll give up 10k gold of treasure to get it.” “I’ll give up 15k”. “Ok, you can have it.”
To me that part has long since been done during history, leading to an enshrined value system.

Bidding wars have IME caused some pretty good arguments in the past, though nothing earth-shattering.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
To me that part has long since been done during history, leading to an enshrined value system.

Bidding wars have IME caused some pretty good arguments in the past, though nothing earth-shattering.

It’s possible I’m just not understanding how some DMs use price lists. Can you describe a scenario and how a price list would be helpful?
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
"Guys, I know you're having fun, and we agreed on the rules. You've even paid your Guild dues and taxes. But the fact is, you have so much money it's making it harder for me to run the game".

We pointed out several cash sinks we could invest in, like buying property, paying off a Duke to get minor titles, building a base of operations, and even a ship, but the DM then pointed out the realistic cost of such things was well within our reach, and then what?

At some point, we'd have nothing to do but sink vast wealth into crafting powerful magic items for the party, becoming too powerful for appropriate CR enemies.

And the easy solution, giving enemies magical gear of their own, was counter productive, since if we beat them, their wealth would increase our own exponentially.

So we had to retire our characters, and make new ones that paid full price for everything, and had nothing in our backpacks but lint and magical items. Very dissatisfying.
And completely the fault of the 3e system as designed, to not be (mathematically) flexible enough to decently handle both very-high and very-low wealth parties.

The DM was put in a bind because the system put said DM in a bind. The only blame I can assign to the DM here is that of trying to adhere too closely to the CR system rather than just winging it.
But we were talking about critical hits, lol.
Oh...yeah...er...right! So we were. :)
But is it really worth it to have a "one in a million" mechanic?
Very much, yes.
Maybe we should just have exploding damage dice instead, if we want dramatic moments to happen with any degree of regularity.
But then it's not one in a million, is it. If "dramatic moments" are occurring with any degree of regularity (or worse, predictability) then they're not so much dramatic as they are just another element in the game.

That's the cool thing about crits and fumbles that need a confirm roll: the confirm roll means they don't happen all that often, making them unusual when they do occur. A flat 1 in 20 chance for each is far too frequent IMO.
On the other hand, I do like the idea of getting a metagame coupon for when I roll well; then I can save it for a dramatic moment when I need a momentum shift, rather than hope I roll a natural 20 at an appropriate time.
Metagame coupons = complete non-starter.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It’s possible I’m just not understanding how some DMs use price lists. Can you describe a scenario and how a price list would be helpful?
I can only speak to how we do it.

During an adventure the party picks up a list of items; for the sake of simplicity let's assume all they find this trip are some basic magic items and some cash. On returning to town those items are identified and - using the price list - evaluated, leading to a list like this (numbers conveniently add to round figures for this example, in practice it's divided down to the g.p.):

(Item number) --- (what it is) --- (value in gp) --- (claimed by)

103 --- Longsword +1 --- 1800 --- Blurt, Danielle (settled by roll-off, Danielle wins)
104 --- Ring: Protection +1 --- 3000 --- Coriander, Jocantha (settled by roll-off, Coriander wins)
105 --- Potion: Healing --- 200 --- [all five] (Blurt wins a 5-way roll-off)
106 --- Spear +1 Returning --- 2700 --- Jocantha
107 --- Spellbook, Illusionist --- 4700 --- [none; sold, none of these characters are Illusionists]
108 --- Folding Boat --- 11000 --- Aloysius+Jocantha go halfsies (because Jocantha lost out on the ring)
109 --- Potion: Invisibility --- 600 --- Danielle
Cash and gems found, minus party expenses e.g. ID pearls = 6000 gp equivalent
------------------------------------------
Total treasury value = 30000 g.p.

There are 5 characters in the party and each gets a full share, thus the share for each one is (30000 / 5 =) 6000.

Next, the players, in-character, claim items from the list; knowing that whatever they take comes out of the 6000 share that character gets; and if they claim and win too much they owe the treasury the difference. Items claimed by no-one are sold, arbitrarily for the listed value as experience has taught me that high-low value systems are a real PITA. Claims are shown above; party members are Aloysius, Blurt, Coriander, Danielle, and Jocantha.

So what each character ends up with is:

Aloysius: a half-share in the Folding Boat plus 1000 gp
Blurt: a Potion of Healing + 5400 gp
Coriander: the Ring of Protection + 3000 gp
Danielle: the Longsword, the Invisibility Potion, and 3600 g.p.
Jocantha: the Spear, a half-share in the Folding Boat, and needs to put 1700 back into the treasury from her own existing funds/resources.

Any kind of drafting or take-your-choice system would inevitably end up with one character owning the Folding Boat outright while someone else might end up only with the Longsword; a huge disparity in net value and exactly what the system is specifically designed to avoid.

Sometimes big-ticket items like the Folding Boat here will be taken out of treasury (thus reducing everyone's share) and carried forward as party possessions - which is fine provided that party intends to stick together. But party makeup often changes as characters come and go, and trying to figure out years later who owns what share of some carried-forward item is the stuff of bookkeeping and record-keeping nightmares! :)

Conclusion:
Good luck doing anything like this without a magic item price list. :)
 
Last edited:

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
I can only speak to how we do it.

During an adventure the party picks up a list of items; for the sake of simplicity let's assume all they find this trip are some basic magic items and some cash. On returning to town those items are identified and - using the price list - evaluated, leading to a list like this (numbers conveniently add to round figures for this example, in practice it's divided down to the g.p.):

(Item number) --- (what it is) --- (value in gp) --- (claimed by)

103 --- Longsword +1 --- 1800 --- Blurt, Danielle (settled by roll-off, Danielle wins)
104 --- Ring: Protection +1 --- 3000 --- Coriander, Jocantha (settled by roll-off, Coriander wins)
105 --- Potion: Healing --- 200 --- [all five] (Blurt wins a 5-way roll-off)
106 --- Spear +1 Returning --- 2700 --- Jocantha
107 --- Spellbook, Illusionist --- 4700 --- [none; sold, none of these characters are Illusionists]
108 --- Folding Boat --- 11000 --- Aloysius+Jocantha go halfsies (because Jocantha lost out on the ring)
109 --- Potion: Invisibility --- 600 --- Danielle
Cash and gems found, minus party expenses e.g. ID pearls = 6000 gp equivalent
------------------------------------------
Total treasury value = 30000 g.p.

There are 5 characters in the party and each gets a full share, thus the share for each one is (30000 / 5 =) 6000.

Next, the players, in-character, claim items from the list; knowing that whatever they take comes out of the 6000 share that character gets; and if they claim and win too much they owe the treasury the difference. Items claimed by no-one are sold, arbitrarily for the listed value as experience has taught me that high-low value systems are a real PITA. Claims are shown above; party members are Aloysius, Blurt, Coriander, Danielle, and Jocantha.

So what each character ends up with is:

Aloysius: a half-share in the Folding Boat plus 1000 gp
Blurt: a Potion of Healing + 5400 gp
Coriander: the Ring of Protection + 3000 gp
Danielle: the Longsword, the Invisibility Potion, and 3600 g.p.
Jocantha: the Spear, a half-share in the Folding Boat, and needs to put 1700 back into the treasury from her own existing funds/resources.

Any kind of drafting or take-your-choice system would inevitably end up with one character owning the Folding Boat outright while someone else might end up only with the Longsword; a huge disparity in net value and exactly what the system is specifically designed to avoid.

Sometimes big-ticket items like the Folding Boat here will be taken out of treasury (thus reducing everyone's share) and carried forward as party possessions - which is fine provided that party intends to stick together. But party makeup often changes as characters come and go, and trying to figure out years later who owns what share of some carried-forward item is the stuff of bookkeeping and record-keeping nightmares! :)

Conclusion:
Good luck doing anything like this without a magic item price list. :)

Whoah.

The closest experience I have to any of that is divvying up raid loot in World of Warcraft, ca. 2006/7.

Well, that and my buddy’s acrimonious divorce.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Also, if you want to handle it that way, wouldn’t it be simpler to auction off each item, then divide up the auction proceeds?
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Whoah.

The closest experience I have to any of that is divvying up raid loot in World of Warcraft, ca. 2006/7.

Well, that and my buddy’s acrimonious divorce.
Yeah, I’ve encountered the method before. Absolutely hated it. It meant you lost out on high cost stuff because it wasn’t divisible in such a way.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
I can only speak to how we do it.

During an adventure the party picks up a list of items; for the sake of simplicity let's assume all they find this trip are some basic magic items and some cash. On returning to town those items are identified and - using the price list - evaluated, leading to a list like this (numbers conveniently add to round figures for this example, in practice it's divided down to the g.p.):

(Item number) --- (what it is) --- (value in gp) --- (claimed by)

103 --- Longsword +1 --- 1800 --- Blurt, Danielle (settled by roll-off, Danielle wins)
104 --- Ring: Protection +1 --- 3000 --- Coriander, Jocantha (settled by roll-off, Coriander wins)
105 --- Potion: Healing --- 200 --- [all five] (Blurt wins a 5-way roll-off)
106 --- Spear +1 Returning --- 2700 --- Jocantha
107 --- Spellbook, Illusionist --- 4700 --- [none; sold, none of these characters are Illusionists]
108 --- Folding Boat --- 11000 --- Aloysius+Jocantha go halfsies (because Jocantha lost out on the ring)
109 --- Potion: Invisibility --- 600 --- Danielle
Cash and gems found, minus party expenses e.g. ID pearls = 6000 gp equivalent
------------------------------------------
Total treasury value = 30000 g.p.

There are 5 characters in the party and each gets a full share, thus the share for each one is (30000 / 5 =) 6000.

Next, the players, in-character, claim items from the list; knowing that whatever they take comes out of the 6000 share that character gets; and if they claim and win too much they owe the treasury the difference. Items claimed by no-one are sold, arbitrarily for the listed value as experience has taught me that high-low value systems are a real PITA. Claims are shown above; party members are Aloysius, Blurt, Coriander, Danielle, and Jocantha.

So what each character ends up with is:

Aloysius: a half-share in the Folding Boat plus 1000 gp
Blurt: a Potion of Healing + 5400 gp
Coriander: the Ring of Protection + 3000 gp
Danielle: the Longsword, the Invisibility Potion, and 3600 g.p.
Jocantha: the Spear, a half-share in the Folding Boat, and needs to put 1700 back into the treasury from her own existing funds/resources.

Any kind of drafting or take-your-choice system would inevitably end up with one character owning the Folding Boat outright while someone else might end up only with the Longsword; a huge disparity in net value and exactly what the system is specifically designed to avoid.

Sometimes big-ticket items like the Folding Boat here will be taken out of treasury (thus reducing everyone's share) and carried forward as party possessions - which is fine provided that party intends to stick together. But party makeup often changes as characters come and go, and trying to figure out years later who owns what share of some carried-forward item is the stuff of bookkeeping and record-keeping nightmares! :)

Conclusion:
Good luck doing anything like this without a magic item price list. :)
Very cool.

Out of curiosity, did you also use XP=gp at the time? If so, did Blurt end up with 5400xp and Coriander only 3000xp because magic items aren't included in the treasure to XP calcs, or did the GM equally split up the cash (plus sold items values) XP regardless of how it shook out individually?
 

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