DM's word is final... and illogical?

[Dirty Magurdy]

Skill points as a dragon are stated as only being gained through racial hit die, gains normal amount of skill points for its class levels. And I know that I don't get the Hit Die Bonus. I do know how to read -_-

I already have class levels, as I am already level 9.

And yes, I am obtaining the +3 LA as well.

So I should still get my human bonuses that I have been getting ever since lvl 1.

Like I said earlier, this matter has already been dealt with. Thank you all for you comments and advice.

So after all your belly-aching and insisting that this was not about adding dragon mechanics to your character, you seem pleased with the resolution now that you get these half-dragon mechanics added to your human character...

Congradulations, sounds to me like you brow-beat your DM into compliance with endless arguments, bickering and childish rantings. Heck, you even came here hoping to get some ammo to hurl at your DM to get you these mechanics you claimed were never your goal. From what another in your group says, the DM is fairly new and doesn't seem to have a grasp on all the intricate rules just yet, but hey, he's learned a very valuable lesson - don't run a game with bullying jerks. Good luck getting this guy to run anything again, you sound like a nightmare player and I feel bad for your DM. Sounds like the guy had an idea for a creative story arc based on your character, but you weren't buying into it until he rewarded you with a LA and all sorts of kewl powers.

Next time just try making a half dragon with no real background or storyline. Take your cheesy template powers and be a silent background character to cut your DM a break.

Mod Edit: Ladies and gentlemen, this poster apparently didn't do a good job of asking himself if this post would make him sound like a jerk before hitting "submit". We expect you to treat each other with civility and respect at all times. Please keep it civil. Thank you. ~Umbran

 

[Nomnath]

Your PC's type has changed to dragon and no longer human.

You no longer get the +1 skill points per level that humans do - it says you gain per class level and that any racial class skills are still class skills (too bad humans don't have any).

Umm I know I'm new and all, but I think you're wrong. Human is not a type, it's a race, and races are not types. The template changes type to dragon. Therefore he would stop being humanoid(human) and become dragon(human) with human as more of a subtype.

Furthermore half dragon is not a race, it does not cause change of racial traits, a half elf half dragon would still have the racial lack of need to sleep for instance. The human racials in question here that would not be replaced is +4 skill points at first HD, and +1 at every other HD. These are "extra" skill points, or and the PHB specifically calls the first 4 a bonus, it can be inferred that the others are bonus points too.

The part of the template that says "A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon" is a lil ambiguous depending on the definiton of dragon. There is as far as I can tell only one definition of dragon, the one given by the type dragon. The type dragon entry specifies the number of skill points normally gained by a creature with type dragon, but a dragon(human) would still get the bonus as the subtype traits are applied to the type, overwriting as needed.

So his character is still a human, his type is dragon so effects that affect dragons affect him. Effects that affect human also affect him, so my sword of dragon bane works on him, but my sword of human bane doesn't as that is actually humanoid(human). At the same time he is still human enough to qualify for things that require human race, ie chameleon class, human paragon (if it exists).

 

[JamesonCourage]

Umm I know I'm new and all, but I think you're wrong. Human is not a type, it's a race, and races are not types. The template changes type to dragon. Therefore he would stop being humanoid(human) and become dragon(human) with human as more of a subtype.

Furthermore half dragon is not a race, it does not cause change of racial traits, a half elf half dragon would still have the racial lack of need to sleep for instance. The human racials in question here that would not be replaced is +4 skill points at first HD, and +1 at every other HD. These are "extra" skill points, or and the PHB specifically calls the first 4 a bonus, it can be inferred that the others are bonus points too.

The part of the template that says "A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon" is a lil ambiguous depending on the definiton of dragon. There is as far as I can tell only one definition of dragon, the one given by the type dragon. The type dragon entry specifies the number of skill points normally gained by a creature with type dragon, but a dragon(human) would still get the bonus as the subtype traits are applied to the type, overwriting as needed.

So his character is still a human, his type is dragon so effects that affect dragons affect him. Effects that affect human also affect him, so my sword of dragon bane works on him, but my sword of human bane doesn't as that is actually humanoid(human). At the same time he is still human enough to qualify for things that require human race, ie chameleon class, human paragon (if it exists).

To my knowledge, there is no such thing in RAW as a dragon (human). Dragon is a creature type, as is humanoid (subtype). If something affects humans, I don't believe it affects a half-dragon. From the SRD:

Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to dragon.

Dragon Type: A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities.

Humanoid Type: A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype.

As you can see, dragons are distinctly different from humans, or even humanoids. Humanoids must have a subtype (such as human), while dragons do not. You could rule him a dragon (human) as a GM if you wanted to, but I don't believe the RAW dictates this to be the case.

Now, a half-dragon could well keep certain traits from the base race:

Special Qualities: A half-dragon has all the special qualities of the base creature.

 

[Fallenibilis]

So after all your belly-aching and insisting that this was not about adding dragon mechanics to your character, you seem pleased with the resolution now that you get these half-dragon mechanics added to your human character...

Congradulations, sounds to me like you brow-beat your DM into compliance with endless arguments, bickering and childish rantings. Heck, you even came here hoping to get some ammo to hurl at your DM to get you these mechanics you claimed were never your goal. From what another in your group says, the DM is fairly new and doesn't seem to have a grasp on all the intricate rules just yet, but hey, he's learned a very valuable lesson - don't run a game with bullying jerks. Good luck getting this guy to run anything again, you sound like a nightmare player and I feel bad for your DM. Sounds like the guy had an idea for a creative story arc based on your character, but you weren't buying into it until he rewarded you with a LA and all sorts of kewl powers.

Next time just try making a half dragon with no real background or storyline. Take your cheesy template powers and be a silent background character to cut your DM a break.

Ok as the other person in the group who said that the dm is fairly new, i should inform you that this is also Zesty Gordita's first Campaign ever.
And as one who sat at the table and observes all the goings on between the two people in question there was no browbeating. SO basically all things your saying is just really jerky. May i kindly suggest that you not comment when all your doing is assuming. There was no bullying whats so ever. The Character never origanlly wanted to be a Half Dragon but by the way the DM had set up his past was confusing, his character did delve into his backround through out the story and he basically determined that his character was a half-dargon based on basic logical sense aka his Dad was a FULL DRAGON and his Mom was a HALF DRAGON so there way no way for him to be a full human. All he wanted to do (as he stated before) was know what his character was. Which is perfectly understandable its hard to roleplay someing that your only able to losely conect your self with cause everything about your character is constantly shifting. And also the DM has given him the option of taking the LA and its "kewl powers", and Zesty has yet to decide if he wants to or not, so stop being a judgementall jerk.

 

[Fallenibilis]

Your PC's type has changed to dragon and no longer human.

You no longer get the +1 skill points per level that humans do - it says you gain per class level and that any racial class skills are still class skills (too bad humans don't have any).

So I really don't know what "human benefits" you are talking about? The +1 skill point per level for each of the previous class levels?

Characters never lose skills thay had gain previously by gaining a template or some other reason - they just don't gain any more if they lost the reason to gain bonuses (like no longer being human).

You would have "suddenly" gained the ability score increases listed in the MM though and the natural armor bonuses, etc. These are the things that give the +3 LA. If you didn't gain them then you shouldn't gain the LA.

The skill points aren't the issue especially since he gets an additional skill point per level as the template would raise his Int by +2. Whats in Question is losing his feat which he shouldn't as his base race is human augmented by the half dragon template. Just like if you took an Elf and applied the Half-dragon template the creature would still get the racial modifers of the elf, trance, racial skill bonuses and weapon proficiencies. Thus its certainly acceptable and correct to let the "human character" keep his feat and +1 skill per level. Another reason the Feat is in question is because the DM made him take the Dragon Blooded feat to quailfy for certain things which as a Half-Dragon he would have already qualifyed for thus he lost a feat slot which as everyone who played D&D for awhile knows is quite an important thing.

 

[Nomnath]

To my knowledge, there is no such thing in RAW as a dragon (human). Dragon is a creature type, as is humanoid (subtype). If something affects humans, I don't believe it affects a half-dragon.

Humanoids must have a subtype (such as human), while dragons do not. You could rule him a dragon (human) as a GM if you wanted to, but I don't believe the RAW dictates this to be the case.

Now, a half-dragon could well keep certain traits from the base race:

There is nothing in RAW that forbids the dragon/human type/subtype combo. Also, raw specifically differentiates types from subtypes, and the template says it only changes the type. Unless the subtype was an illegal match, it would be kept. Elsewise we would get things like 1/2 dragon nixies that lose aquatic subtype and suddenly can no longer breathe underwater.

From what it looks like (not strictly raw) monster traits are determined by type then subtype then race then class, where race is something like 'yuan-ti halfblood, or troll,forest'. This is an observation inferred by the fact that subtypes add to types and sometimes add exceptions to traits in from the type or even contradicts parts outright, and race adds even more, some of which is also contradictory. Since contradictions are resolved with race>sub>type, then a change in type would not change anything to do with race.

 

[the Jester]

Actually looking at the rules reveals that a half-dragon human becomes a "Medium Dragon (Augmented Humanoid)". It does indeed lose the human subtype.

I was surprised, I thought this was not true. I must have house ruled it in my game, because I know I allowed things like humanbane weapons to work on half-dragon humans and such.

 

[JamesonCourage]

There is nothing in RAW that forbids the dragon/human type/subtype combo. Also, raw specifically differentiates types from subtypes, and the template says it only changes the type. Unless the subtype was an illegal match, it would be kept. Elsewise we would get things like 1/2 dragon nixies that lose aquatic subtype and suddenly can no longer breathe underwater.

There is nothing in RAW that forbids you from thinking "I want the world to explode" and having it happen, but that doesn't make it an option.

Certain subtypes, such as regional or elemental subtypes, carry over. Changing your main type from Humanoid to dragon would seem to lose your humanoid-exclusive subtype.

From what it looks like (not strictly raw) monster traits are determined by type then subtype then race then class, where race is something like 'yuan-ti halfblood, or troll,forest'. This is an observation inferred by the fact that subtypes add to types and sometimes add exceptions to traits in from the type or even contradicts parts outright, and race adds even more, some of which is also contradictory. Since contradictions are resolved with race>sub>type, then a change in type would not change anything to do with race.

Like you said, it's not RAW. Which is fine. My own game is house-ruled so heavily it isn't D&D anymore. Play what you like, and if your group wants to play it like you described, go for it

Actually looking at the rules reveals that a half-dragon human becomes a "Medium Dragon (Augmented Humanoid)". It does indeed lose the human subtype.

I was surprised, I thought this was not true. I must have house ruled it in my game, because I know I allowed things like humanbane weapons to work on half-dragon humans and such.

Yeah, I thought it did lose it.

Damn, triple edit!

 

[The Finel Say]

ok i just read all of this cuz it sounded interesting. i know this thread is old. i was googling looking for how to make a half black dragon and google sent me here. i know i could just read a book to find that out. but i dont have any cuz i go to my friends house where we do the D&D games. im wanting to start my own campaign but, he wont let me barrow a book cuz he let someone do that before and they never brought it back and moved out of state. now saying that i really want an update on this thread.

what happed to that 1/4 black dragon and 1/4 bronze dragon 1/2 human? did you settle with your DM about your character? or did you leave his campaign? (says sarcasticlly) oh even better did you get your character killed?