D&D General DnD cosmology - Which Edition do you prefer?

[glass]

Actually no, you can't use the great wheel with 4e, since you are lacking some alignments.

I am pretty sure I could. I know that I have run 4e with my homebrew cosmology, which has a non-evil plane of chaos and a non-good plane of law.

And the mistake you are making is restricting alignment to this, because it's the very bizarre and unique 4e view, which is also (at least for me) one reason it failed, it reduced most things to "teams".

That ship sailed with 1e Dragonlance at the absolute latest (see "all the gods, even the 'good' ones, destroyed a city and wrecked two continents because one priest got above himself).

About half of the planes of existence in the Great Wheel are unnecessary.

Nothing is "necessary". It is perfectly possible to play D&D for years with one small town and one dungeon nearby, with not a thought about cosmology.

Grid-filling is what a lot of early D&D was about. But specifically I think the original idea for the outer planes was to brainstorm as many after lives from religions and myth and legend first, and then after the fact they realized that they could be shoved into an alignment grid if they made up a few extra, rather than the other way around.

My understanding was it was a bit of both. Someone came up with the pure alignment planes, someone else came up with a bunch of planes to represent afterlives and the homes of pantheons, and the GW as we know it was the result of mashing the two together (with a couple of extras to fill in the grid).

Anyway, the OP asked for this not to be an edition warring thread. So please, whichever you prefer, could everyone possibly say that without running down the other cosmologies?

_
glass.

 

[Lyxen]

Except you're making claims about 4e cosmology without keeping in mind the actual 4e use of alignment.

And you were one of the first apart from me to say that the use of alignment by 4e was "debatable". So using a debatable principle to create a cosmology makes that cosmology even more debatable.

When you call it "one dimensional" that's because you're imposing a 1e/2e "Great Wheel" conception of alignment onto something that wasn't actually built to handle a 1e/2e conception of alignment as a 9 point grid. When you're making strong claims about how 4e's cosmology is "this" or "that" and ignoring the actual construction of 4e cosmology it's just weird.

No, I'm just saying that, in general, I prefer a cosmology with more axis than one, as a general principle, as it creates more innate tensions.

(Arguably in the Planescape setting the entire Great Wheel is a shared delusion by the planars who live on those planes anyway - a self imposed construct to fit their worldview of a 9 point alignment grid. Re-reading some of the Planescape stuff recently I'm struck by how at some level the authors are actually mocking of the entire structure of alignment and having supposed "good" entities behaving in arguably evil ways because the Law/Chaos war of the Blood War is more important to the setting and to the folks who live in it than any concept of Good or Evil.)

Not really, it's interesting to see that the "good" side is relying on the "evil" side to conduct the law chaos conflict although it's obvious that the battlefront involves absolutely everyone, so he two axis are actually totally involved in very different ways => more tension and conflict and possibilities than with only one axis.

 

[Lyxen]

Yeah, I know all of that. I hate alignment, and I especially hate the redundant planes in the Great Wheel (why the hell is Pandemonium necessary? Just make it one of the levels of the Abyss. Or Hades? Why is Carceri evil? It's just a planar prison. It probably shouldn't even be a full plane of existence, just a large demiplane. Why do there need to be two different planes of war? War is war! Why does basically every plane have 5+ layers for no good reason? This cosmology is overly convoluted and makes no sense!!!)

About half of the planes of existence in the Great Wheel are unnecessary. If you want to base a cosmology off of alignment, fine. Make there be a Lawful Evil Plane, a Chaotic Good Plane, and a True Neutral Plane and whatnot. But you don't need a plane of existence for every in-between alignment (Lawful-Neutral-Evil, Chaotic-Neutral-Good, Lawful-Good-Neutral, etc).

You know what, why do oyu need a cosmology ? Just don't use planes at all, if it's too complex for you.

However, some of them like the intricacies, the complexity, the little wheels within the big wheels, the various creatures with varying outlooks and ways to conduct their intrigue, etc. Everything that makes Planescape what it is, one of the most beloved settings of all time and for good reason.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Nothing is "necessary". It is perfectly possible to play D&D for years with one small town and one dungeon nearby, with not a thought about cosmology.

This is not at all relevant. Whether or not the main cosmology of the game is simple to understand and actually makes sense is important to me. The Great Wheel is neither of those things. Redundant planes should be combined, misplaced planes should be moved to be more accurate of their true identity, and the planes of existence should be designed with adventuring in them in mind. An unexplorable cosmology is fine for a fantasy book where it normally doesn't matter. It matters for D&D where many players and tables would want to have adventures in the different planes of existence.

 

[Lyxen]

IMO the best part of the Great Wheel cosmology in Planescape is how the setting sets up that it's a "real" thing and then undermines it wherever it can by making it just a construct of philosophers arguing the entire thing into existence because in the Outer Planes belief creates reality.

Indeed, and that makes it even more interesting because you have that kind or yet "orthogonal" view allowing even more possibilities at odd with what most other creatures think or are actualyl bound to because of belief.

 

[Lyxen]

I could go on. There's just a ton of redundant ideas and planes in the Great Wheel.

What you call redundancy, some call subtlety and wealth, since nothing is exactly the same. Matter of taste, I suppose.

 

[glass]

This is not at all relevant.

Of course it is relevant. You based your statement on necessity. I pointed out the massive flaw in your reasoning.

Whether or not the main cosmology of the game is simple to understand and actually makes sense is important to me. The Great Wheel is neither of those things. Redundant planes should be combined, misplaced planes should be moved to be more accurate of their true identity, and the planes of existence should be designed with adventuring in them in mind. An unexplorable cosmology is fine for a fantasy book where it normally doesn't matter. It matters for D&D where many players and tables would want to have adventures in the different planes of existence.

Just like there is no "necessary", there is no "should". You would prefer them to be combined, other people would prefer otherwise. Yet other people enjoy multiple different arrangements with varying degrees of lumping and splitting.

Matter of taste, I suppose.

Indeed. I am sure almost everyone here is familiar with the expression "De gustibus non est disputandum", but very few seem to really grok it.

_
glass.

 

[Lyxen]

I am pretty sure I could. I know that I have run 4e with my homebrew cosmology, which has a non-evil plane of chaos and a non-good plane of law.

Then how do you know which plane the souls go to after death ?

That ship sailed with 1e Dragonlance at the absolute latest (see "all the gods, even the 'good' ones, destroyed a city and wrecked two continents because one priest got above himself).

Did I say that I liked Dragonlance ? I have always found the cosmology way too simple and uninteresting, and the above is way too biblical for me.

Nothing is "necessary". It is perfectly possible to play D&D for years with one small town and one dungeon nearby, with not a thought about cosmology.

Indeed, after that, it's just a matter of preference.

My understanding was it was a bit of both. Someone came up with the pure alignment planes, someone else came up with a bunch of planes to represent afterlives and the homes of pantheons, and the GW as we know it was the result of mashing the two together (with a couple of extras to fill in the grid).

Anyway, the OP asked for this not to be an edition warring thread. So please, whichever you prefer, could everyone possibly say that without running down the other cosmologies?

You are right to centre the debate again. For me, it's not about an edition war, as I've said 4e has provided really great ideas, it's just a matter of preference, not of actual worth or principles.

 

[Lyxen]

This is not at all relevant. Whether or not the main cosmology of the game is simple to understand and actually makes sense is important to me. The Great Wheel is neither of those things. Redundant planes should be combined, misplaced planes should be moved to be more accurate of their true identity, and the planes of existence should be designed with adventuring in them in mind. An unexplorable cosmology is fine for a fantasy book where it normally doesn't matter. It matters for D&D where many players and tables would want to have adventures in the different planes of existence.

First, good books and TTRPG both provide complex but explorable cosmologies. Nothing says, however, that they have to be immediately explorable and that they will make sense instantly. Sometimes unexplainable complexity is great, it makes people wonder. Just look at Sanderson's Cosmere, it matters hugely, so many secrets to find, so many things that did not make sense at start (and still don't), but knowing him I'm sure they will make sense at some point.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

You know what, why do oyu need a cosmology ? Just don't use planes at all, if it's too complex for you.

However, some of them like the intricacies, the complexity, the little wheels within the big wheels, the various creatures with varying outlooks and ways to conduct their intrigue, etc. Everything that makes Planescape what it is, one of the most beloved settings of all time and for good reason.

I'm fine with the concept of Planescape. I'm pretty fond of Sigil, the Factions, the Lady of Pain, the Blood War, and a lot of extraplanar creatures (Demons, Devils, Angels, Modrons, etc). I think Planescape is one of the more interesting settings from past editions.

But the Great Wheel? I think . . . isn't good. The second worst cosmology in the history of D&D (with the World Tree being just slightly worse). IMO, the World Axis was a way better idea, and I'm sad that it was dropped. I like Eberron's Cosmology, too. It makes sense for the world.

There's no good reason for having 16 different alignment-inspired planes of existence in system where alignment has just 9 options. Practically all of the "in-between alignment planes" could be either removed entirely or folded into a different Plane of Existence and have the same role in the cosmology. Gehenna should be the True Neutral Evil plane of existence, and Hades is really boring (it doesn't even have the same role that it had in Greek Mythology!). There really don't need to be two separate planes of existence for the idea of war. War never changes, just make it be one plane of existence with different regions if you want. There's no reason for Bytopia to be separate from Arboria, or for the Beastlands to be separate from the Feywild (yes, I know the Beastlands predate the Feywild, that doesn't mean they're not largely redundant). Much of the concepts that Bytopia and Arvandor have are pretty redundant with the Feywild, too. There's no reason Carceri needs to be a full plane of existence, especially not an evil one. Just make it a large demiplane where the PVA (Planar Variance Authority) put people that broke too many of the setting's rules/caused too much mayhem. I could go on and on. And I have before. The Great Wheel really doesn't need to be as complicated and contradictory as it is.

And I like cosmologies. I really, really like cosmologies. They're one of my favorite things to worldbuild. I just think the Great Wheel is a messy, nonsensical cosmology that really shouldn't be the base assumed one of 5e. It is really, really hard for newer players to understand and learn completely (at least, it was for me and my players when we joined the hobby in 5e). I'm fine with it existing, and still really like the concept of Planescape . . . I just think that something like the World Axis or the one I brainstormed earlier on this site would be better suited for newer players.