TrizzlWizzl
First Post
Possible Spoilers!!
Frankly, I find all the accusations of 'sucky' high-level adventures to be borne of slightly faulty DMing. If gfunk was able to do this in 'Heart of Nightfang Spire', his DM basically skipped over the section in the module entitled 'Dungeon Features' and the sidebar 'Protected Core of Nightfang'. The module is quite specific about what spells will work in what fashion and what won't... if you were able to spy on the main 'bad guy', teleport in and whoop ass, then the DM messed up. Plain and simple.
In my opinion, the potency of high-level spells such as scry or teleport is totally subject to the DM's adjudication. While it would really suck to totally shut the PCs down every time they tried to use powerful magic to bisect sections of dungeons/towers/castles/whatever, it would also totally suck to assume high-level enemies have absolutely no idea anyone would ever want to come after them.
[SPOILER!!] For example, the vampire Gulthias from Heart of Nightfang Spire has Scry +19 and the spell detect scrying, which makes it almost impossible to scry on the guy without his knowing about it. He can chill within his protected core without worrying about PCs suddenly popping up and beaning him on the head, and for forays out and about... well heck the fella has an Intelligence of 19, so why would he leave the core knowing he's being scryed on without first casting nondetection (which lasts 13 hours)? He probably wouldn't. [/SPOILER!!]
So really, it all kind of comes down to the DM. I don't think the high-level modules 'suck' so much as DMs get overmatched at high levels by all the features their NPCs have to bring to the table. If you find yourself teleporting hither and thither, bopping bad guys on the head and scooping up their treasure, your DM might want to spend a few hours doing the following:
1) Read the module very carefully with an eye on how the module addresses high-level magic. I haven't gone over 'Deep Horizon' very carefully yet, but 'Standing Stone' and 'Nightfang Spire' have good coverage on 'game-breaking' magic. It's still possible in these modules to use powerful spells to the party's benefit, but so far I haven't seen any way for the PCs to cast one spell and poof... module's over.
2) Read the spell descriptions. If you try to scry on someone with at least a 12 Int, he gets a Scry check (DC 20) to detect it. If he detects, why wouldn't he find an evil (presumably evil) 11th level cleric to put a forbiddance spell on his domicile and beef up his gaurd?
So, to sum up: it's your DM's fault. Seriously. Monte Cook's guidelines for how to deal with high-level PCs are excellent, but don't forget that high-level enemies are probably kind of smart, probably evil, don't want to die, want to kill you, and have every reason to react to what you do.
No, all high level adventures don't suck. It's just that at high levels the amount of powerful magic flying around makes it hard for DMs to find the right balance between providing a challenge and not shutting the PCs down for using thier hard-won abilities.
P.S. As to the 'premise' debate on high-level modules, I frankly like the fact that a 'premise' is largely absent. Yeah, premises on low level adventures help get the campaign going, but by 13th level the campaign's plot is pretty highly developed. I like the space to be able to insert my own plot into the module, leaving it free of pre-exsisting 'flavors' that would be present given strong plot hooks.
I might not be popular for saying this, but it takes a really good DM to run a 'good' high level campaign. It's just harder... there's more stuff to keep track of, there's more plot intricacies to be addressed, etc.
Frankly, I find all the accusations of 'sucky' high-level adventures to be borne of slightly faulty DMing. If gfunk was able to do this in 'Heart of Nightfang Spire', his DM basically skipped over the section in the module entitled 'Dungeon Features' and the sidebar 'Protected Core of Nightfang'. The module is quite specific about what spells will work in what fashion and what won't... if you were able to spy on the main 'bad guy', teleport in and whoop ass, then the DM messed up. Plain and simple.
In my opinion, the potency of high-level spells such as scry or teleport is totally subject to the DM's adjudication. While it would really suck to totally shut the PCs down every time they tried to use powerful magic to bisect sections of dungeons/towers/castles/whatever, it would also totally suck to assume high-level enemies have absolutely no idea anyone would ever want to come after them.
[SPOILER!!] For example, the vampire Gulthias from Heart of Nightfang Spire has Scry +19 and the spell detect scrying, which makes it almost impossible to scry on the guy without his knowing about it. He can chill within his protected core without worrying about PCs suddenly popping up and beaning him on the head, and for forays out and about... well heck the fella has an Intelligence of 19, so why would he leave the core knowing he's being scryed on without first casting nondetection (which lasts 13 hours)? He probably wouldn't. [/SPOILER!!]
So really, it all kind of comes down to the DM. I don't think the high-level modules 'suck' so much as DMs get overmatched at high levels by all the features their NPCs have to bring to the table. If you find yourself teleporting hither and thither, bopping bad guys on the head and scooping up their treasure, your DM might want to spend a few hours doing the following:
1) Read the module very carefully with an eye on how the module addresses high-level magic. I haven't gone over 'Deep Horizon' very carefully yet, but 'Standing Stone' and 'Nightfang Spire' have good coverage on 'game-breaking' magic. It's still possible in these modules to use powerful spells to the party's benefit, but so far I haven't seen any way for the PCs to cast one spell and poof... module's over.
2) Read the spell descriptions. If you try to scry on someone with at least a 12 Int, he gets a Scry check (DC 20) to detect it. If he detects, why wouldn't he find an evil (presumably evil) 11th level cleric to put a forbiddance spell on his domicile and beef up his gaurd?
So, to sum up: it's your DM's fault. Seriously. Monte Cook's guidelines for how to deal with high-level PCs are excellent, but don't forget that high-level enemies are probably kind of smart, probably evil, don't want to die, want to kill you, and have every reason to react to what you do.
No, all high level adventures don't suck. It's just that at high levels the amount of powerful magic flying around makes it hard for DMs to find the right balance between providing a challenge and not shutting the PCs down for using thier hard-won abilities.
P.S. As to the 'premise' debate on high-level modules, I frankly like the fact that a 'premise' is largely absent. Yeah, premises on low level adventures help get the campaign going, but by 13th level the campaign's plot is pretty highly developed. I like the space to be able to insert my own plot into the module, leaving it free of pre-exsisting 'flavors' that would be present given strong plot hooks.
I might not be popular for saying this, but it takes a really good DM to run a 'good' high level campaign. It's just harder... there's more stuff to keep track of, there's more plot intricacies to be addressed, etc.
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