evilbob
Adventurer
Looking for a good CR 2 monster to challenge a level 2 party, I noticed there is a wide variance in what constitutes a CR 2 monster. Keep in mind that for a level 2 character, 20 HP is extremely high (14 Con fighter) and 10 HP is extremely low (10 Con wizard), with ~17 being about what many characters have. Similarly 18 AC is really high, and 14 AC is really low, with 15-16 being average in my experience. Most PCs will have +5 to hit, and do about 8 damage per attack.
Let's start with a Grick. 14 AC, 27 HP, potential to do 13 damage with two +4 to hit attacks. Probably get a surprise round, which grants it advantage to hit once, but otherwise something I'd call a very moderate challenge to a level 2 party. Chance of PC death is basically zero.
Move next to a Gnoll Pack Lord, fighting alone. Now we've got 15 AC and 49 HP, with the chance to do 16 damage in two attacks. Tough, and definitely more dangerous, but still the chance of PC death is quite low. But that's already a significant difference (and this monster is designed to work with others, which makes it even stronger in a group).
Now the Polar/Cave Bear: only 12 AC and 49 HP, but +7 to hit on two attacks for a total of 21 damage each round. It's got a good chance to hit and a good chance to drop a character each round, and 49 HP is easily 2+ rounds for an average party, even focus-fired. Still not a likely TPK but the damage is way up and it's still a CR 2.
That's quite a variance with the "brute" monsters - but then we also have the "save-or-drop" monsters where things get even more tricky.
Ghast - not too tough with 13 AC and 36 HP, but turn defense means clerics no likey and melee will have a bad time with it - save or disadvantage to hit. The main thing is its +5 hit, 10 damage and DC 10 Con save or paralyzed - which means next round you are down (coup-de-grace bite for 19 damage). Sure it takes a couple rounds and a failed save, but the chance of a PC dying goes up.
But what about the Gibbering Mouther? It's a first-round danger: DC 13 Dex save or be blind in an AoE, which gives it advantage to hit you for a whopping 17 damage. That means someone is very likely to go down in one round - which combos in a nasty way with its "DC 10 Wis save or be useless" power that happens EVERY ROUND to EVERYONE. So there's a decent chance you'll helplessly watch your downed buddy bleed out while you hit your friend or stand in a corner, especially since it has 67 HP to chew through. Chance of death goes way up.
Now check the Gelatinous Cube. Very good chance for a surprise round, where it's a save with disadvantage or get sucked in and take 10 damage. If you fail another save, you're down, no question: 21 auto-damage. No one is going to stay up from 31 damage - most level 4 PCs won't. And if you stay in another round, you're dead completely from the 21 auto-damage again. And your buddies can try to help with the 2nd save but it's 10 auto-damage to anyone who does - that is ROUGH. But at least it's two saves, and they are DC 12 Dex then Str - most will at least have a good shot at one of those. And the thing has auto-hit AC. But 84 HP means it will definitely get many turns, and considering it is large there's no reason it can't do this to multiple PCs at a time, possibly as many as four. Quite a bit more scary - still CR 2. There is a good chance multiple PCs could get killed.
And then you have crazy combo CR 2s, like the Giant Elk. Not too scary on its own - average AC and HP for CR 2 - but the problem is if you have two of them. One can get a +6 to hit you for 11 damage and a not-too-easy DC 14 Str save or be prone. The next one gets advantage to trample you to death - a 22 damage hit! Sure, two CR 2s is a "hard" encounter even for a group of four level 4 PCs, but even by level 4, 33 damage can drop most characters (Con 14 with d8 hit dice is still only 31 HP at level 4). By contrast, think back to our humble Gricks. Two of those vs. a level 4 party would very likely not drop anyone. Sure, you can boost up the difficulty by changing the encounter somehow, but apples-to-apples these guys are nowhere near as strong as two Great Elks, which are in turn nowhere even close to two Gelatinous Cubes - which I would easily call a TPK in the making. And yet they are all "worth" 1350's worth of XP for the day.
So do the CRs seem a bit arbitrary? Some don't even attempt to follow the guidelines for monster-building in the DMG (which is fine, but they break those conventions quite a bit). When a 27 HP creature has the same CR as an 84 HP creature, that's already a bit weird. And when some creatures are just plain stronger than others in nearly every way, it seems a lot more uneven. And this is just a quick glance at CR 2 creatures. I'm sure there are others. What do people think? (Part of why I posted this was because of the Banshee thread, where a CR 4 banshee turned out to be a lot stronger than you would have thought.)
Let's start with a Grick. 14 AC, 27 HP, potential to do 13 damage with two +4 to hit attacks. Probably get a surprise round, which grants it advantage to hit once, but otherwise something I'd call a very moderate challenge to a level 2 party. Chance of PC death is basically zero.
Move next to a Gnoll Pack Lord, fighting alone. Now we've got 15 AC and 49 HP, with the chance to do 16 damage in two attacks. Tough, and definitely more dangerous, but still the chance of PC death is quite low. But that's already a significant difference (and this monster is designed to work with others, which makes it even stronger in a group).
Now the Polar/Cave Bear: only 12 AC and 49 HP, but +7 to hit on two attacks for a total of 21 damage each round. It's got a good chance to hit and a good chance to drop a character each round, and 49 HP is easily 2+ rounds for an average party, even focus-fired. Still not a likely TPK but the damage is way up and it's still a CR 2.
That's quite a variance with the "brute" monsters - but then we also have the "save-or-drop" monsters where things get even more tricky.
Ghast - not too tough with 13 AC and 36 HP, but turn defense means clerics no likey and melee will have a bad time with it - save or disadvantage to hit. The main thing is its +5 hit, 10 damage and DC 10 Con save or paralyzed - which means next round you are down (coup-de-grace bite for 19 damage). Sure it takes a couple rounds and a failed save, but the chance of a PC dying goes up.
But what about the Gibbering Mouther? It's a first-round danger: DC 13 Dex save or be blind in an AoE, which gives it advantage to hit you for a whopping 17 damage. That means someone is very likely to go down in one round - which combos in a nasty way with its "DC 10 Wis save or be useless" power that happens EVERY ROUND to EVERYONE. So there's a decent chance you'll helplessly watch your downed buddy bleed out while you hit your friend or stand in a corner, especially since it has 67 HP to chew through. Chance of death goes way up.
Now check the Gelatinous Cube. Very good chance for a surprise round, where it's a save with disadvantage or get sucked in and take 10 damage. If you fail another save, you're down, no question: 21 auto-damage. No one is going to stay up from 31 damage - most level 4 PCs won't. And if you stay in another round, you're dead completely from the 21 auto-damage again. And your buddies can try to help with the 2nd save but it's 10 auto-damage to anyone who does - that is ROUGH. But at least it's two saves, and they are DC 12 Dex then Str - most will at least have a good shot at one of those. And the thing has auto-hit AC. But 84 HP means it will definitely get many turns, and considering it is large there's no reason it can't do this to multiple PCs at a time, possibly as many as four. Quite a bit more scary - still CR 2. There is a good chance multiple PCs could get killed.
And then you have crazy combo CR 2s, like the Giant Elk. Not too scary on its own - average AC and HP for CR 2 - but the problem is if you have two of them. One can get a +6 to hit you for 11 damage and a not-too-easy DC 14 Str save or be prone. The next one gets advantage to trample you to death - a 22 damage hit! Sure, two CR 2s is a "hard" encounter even for a group of four level 4 PCs, but even by level 4, 33 damage can drop most characters (Con 14 with d8 hit dice is still only 31 HP at level 4). By contrast, think back to our humble Gricks. Two of those vs. a level 4 party would very likely not drop anyone. Sure, you can boost up the difficulty by changing the encounter somehow, but apples-to-apples these guys are nowhere near as strong as two Great Elks, which are in turn nowhere even close to two Gelatinous Cubes - which I would easily call a TPK in the making. And yet they are all "worth" 1350's worth of XP for the day.
So do the CRs seem a bit arbitrary? Some don't even attempt to follow the guidelines for monster-building in the DMG (which is fine, but they break those conventions quite a bit). When a 27 HP creature has the same CR as an 84 HP creature, that's already a bit weird. And when some creatures are just plain stronger than others in nearly every way, it seems a lot more uneven. And this is just a quick glance at CR 2 creatures. I'm sure there are others. What do people think? (Part of why I posted this was because of the Banshee thread, where a CR 4 banshee turned out to be a lot stronger than you would have thought.)
