Do familiars grant "real" Alertness?

[0-hr]

It could certainly be argued that having a familiar is a class ability.

 

[LokiDR]

It could certainly be argued that having a familiar is a class ability.

The familar is a class ability, the abilities it has are its, not really the casters. The argument is valid, but I don't agree with it.

I originally said that the rules are hazy here. I think we call all agree this isn't clear cut. Since it isn't, I have to go with what would fit a campaign best. If your campaign is "by the book" it seems that the use familar abilites this way gets around rules orignally set out (before "virtual feats") and wouldn't really work. That is an opinion. Like I said, this isn't clear cut.

 

[00durrin]

i think if your magically altered dex helped you learn a feat you could not have otherwise, then your magically altered intelligence from a headband gets you skill points that can't be taken away. if you get hit with feeblemind it doesn't affect how many skill points you have...once you learn a rank in a skill it's learned. once you learn dodge it's learned...whether you can use dodge then or not, since there isn't a prereq for using skills, you can't take any skill away

 

[Storm Raven]

In the PHB you have to have the feat in question to fulfill the prerequisites for another feat, no exceptions, unless listed as special under the feat description.
The same is, presumably, true of the prerequisites for PrCs.

Yes, but it does not specify what qualifies as having the feat.

Nowhere else, ASFAIK, does it talk about being able to fulfill prerequisites through items, familiars, spells, etc.

For example, the PHB does not discuss either way whether these sorts of benefits that would grant a feat, or an attribute bonus or whatever, could fulfill the requirement of a prerequisite. You assume that because it says nothing, it means that it is disallowed. This is not a necessary conclusion, it is not even the most logical conclusion.

Your interpretation is just that, interpretation. Other interpretations are just as easily drawn from the same material.

 

[smetzger]

1. p. 51 PHB " While the familiar is within arm's reach, the master gains Alertness."

So you actually get the feat. Its not virtual, you have the feat. If you have the feat you meet the prerequisite. The only thing questionable is what to do when the familiar is no longer at arms reach.

2. p.45 PHB "When wearing light or no armor, a ranger can fight with two weapons as if he had the feats Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting."

If your not convinced by point 1, notice how weak the language is for Rangers. They don't actually get the feats, yet they can still use them to meat prerequisites.

 

[elockanllor]

Having an item that grants a feat does not count as having a feat "as a class feature or special ability" under even the most liberal interpretations.

Looks like a feat-granting item would fall under "special ability" quite easily, I don't see why folks are having problems with this one. Besides, I'm pretty sure several canonical character examples exist with PrC prereqs met from the alterness granted by a familiar.

The argument against allowing this "it causes some ugly effects if the familiar dies" is invalid. I recall a quote stating the nuclear war is impossible as the result is too horrific to contemplate. Trust me, the imagination of a viewer isn't going to keep incoming ICMBs from going off The alertness feat is just like any other feat with a prereq, if the prereq goes away you deal with the consequences.

 

[KarinsDad]

The headband is ugly. Where do you draw the line? What if you drink a potion that raises your int, or cast an extended spell every morning? Do you really want to keep track of which skill ranks were gained with "bonus" Int points, at all the different levels?

Do you really want to keep track of which skill ranks were gained with normal bonus Int points (i.e. the character has 16 Int), at all the different levels?

You could loss Int due to Feeblemind or some other effect. Would you rule that the character has no ranks in his skills? In the case of Feeblemind, would you rule that he has 1 rank per level (+3 bonus at first level)?

The fact is that you have 3 basic choices with regard to skills:

1) Keep track of where all skills are acquired, drop skills as their "prerequisite int" is lost.

2) Do this only for points above and beyond normal (i.e. acquired from magical items or other external sources).

3) Do not worry about it. Unlike feats, blow off when, how, where, you acquired skill ranks. You just have them.

To me, #3 is the easiest.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I have opinions as a DM on two subjects presented here:

1) Feats as a Pre-req for a PrC. I believe that the prerequisite feats are necesary to advance in the PrC. If one were to lose a prereq feat I would no longer allow them to advance in that PrC until they could again regain the feat. This seems to flow logically with the concept that if you lose the prereq for a feat you lose use of that feat until you meet the prereq again.

2) Skill points. Skill Points are not retroactive. If someone used their higher Intelligence granted by a headband and later removed the headband, no loss of skill points would occur. The same is true of a 4th level PC that raises his 17 Int to 18, the character does not gain retroactive skill points for this increase in Intelligence. I allow players IMC to use 'semi-permanent' boosts from items to increase skill points (and bonus spells) as long as that character wears the item at all times. Two characters can not benefit from the same long-term bonus (skill points and bonus spells) from a single item, they would each need to have their own, IMHO.

 

[LokiDR]

1. p. 51 PHB " While the familiar is within arm's reach, the master gains Alertness."

So you actually get the feat. Its not virtual, you have the feat. If you have the feat you meet the prerequisite. The only thing questionable is what to do when the familiar is no longer at arms reach.

2. p.45 PHB "When wearing light or no armor, a ranger can fight with two weapons as if he had the feats Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting."

If your not convinced by point 1, notice how weak the language is for Rangers. They don't actually get the feats, yet they can still use them to meat prerequisites.

If this was a legal court, I believe the strictest interpretation would be that, in a minimalist case, neither the familar nor the ranger work, because the are not "feats", they are class abilites. In the spat books, that was changed, to include class abilites, seemingly mostly for the ranger. Since, if stripped naked with no equipment, the ranger still can act as if with the feats but the wizard can not, there is a fundamental difference. Hence, ranger still works.

That is only view from the strictest view of the rules I can imagine. You don't have to agree with it. I don't think this is really a rules issue at all, it is a campaign issue. Since the rules are unclear, rule any way you want.

 

[LokiDR]

Looks like a feat-granting item would fall under "special ability" quite easily, I don't see why folks are having problems with this one. Besides, I'm pretty sure several canonical character examples exist with PrC prereqs met from the alterness granted by a familiar.

The argument against allowing this "it causes some ugly effects if the familiar dies" is invalid. I recall a quote stating the nuclear war is impossible as the result is too horrific to contemplate. Trust me, the imagination of a viewer isn't going to keep incoming ICMBs from going off The alertness feat is just like any other feat with a prereq, if the prereq goes away you deal with the consequences.

I want to see these several "canonical" characters. Is that any relation to "iconic" or "published"?

The "ugly effects" argument is not invalid. Dealing with a whole bunch of abilites that come and go up to once a round can be very annoying to a DM, and the DM is well within his rights and the rules to say no. Remember, if the rules aren't fun, you can invoke Rule 0.

If you just want to rule the simplest possible way, I would say that temperary bonuses just don't have perminent effects. That way there will never be an arguement. Some people might say that doesn't make logical sense. Fine, then just don't be retro-active. Forget where the skill points came from, if you have them you have them. If you like more depth in nasty effects, like losing your headband, have the skill points go away. All are valid judgements that are within the rules. So long as you are consistant, everything should be fine.