do high HD monsters use epic progressions

[CRGreathouse]

So, Epic feats are available to creatures with more than 20 HD?

Yes. The Draconomicon has a different rule for epic dragons, but that can be used or ignored as you prefer.

Sorry to be dense, but: "Are you saying that if a monster is advanced (or created) to more than 20 HD, it can use epic feats and epic skill checks?"

A monster with more than 20 HD can select epic feats. All characters and monsters can make epic skill checks if their bonus is high enough.

Does a monster advanced to past 20 HD gain ability score bonuses, 1/4 HD?

Generally speaking, monsters don't get ability bonuses from Hit Dice (unless their size category changes through advancement). This is applied oddly in the MM, but that's just the way it is.

I recently had to write up such a monster (advanced it from < 20 HD to over 40 HD), and it was a pain in the butt to see any way the Epic rules came into play.

I'd be glad to look over it if you post it here.

 

[Knight Otu]

(Earlier post got eaten by an error, but CR got most of it)

Generally speaking, monsters don't get ability bonuses from Hit Dice (unless their size category changes through advancement). This is applied oddly in the MM, but that's just the way it is.

Not quite. Monsters do get ability bonuses from Hit Dice -

Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

 

[Garnfellow]

So, Epic feats are available to creatures with more than 20 HD?

Sorry to be dense, but: "Are you saying that if a monster is advanced (or created) to more than 20 HD, it can use epic feats and epic skill checks?"

Does a monster advanced to past 20 HD gain ability score bonuses, 1/4 HD?

Etc.

I recently had to write up such a monster (advanced it from < 20 HD to over 40 HD), and it was a pain in the butt to see any way the Epic rules came into play.

I don't think you're being dense at all . . . the rules are not at all crystal clear or intuitive here, and the matter is compounded by the lack of any good examples outside of the ELH itself.

Deities and Demigods, the Epic Level Handbook, and the Book of Vile Darkness (with all the archfiends) were all released within six months or so of each other. And at the time, WotC was soundly (and I think, rightfully) criticized for failing to build any serious rule synergy between those three books. So you had things like greater gods of magic with only 20 levels of wizard, quasi-deities without divine abilities, and 50 HD monsters without any epic feats.

As other folks have noted, racial HD do not follow Epic progression rules at all. Presumably, any monster with more than 20 HD can take epic feats, and this is the only really place where "epicness" makes a difference.

But there is almost no precedent for outfitting 21+ HD monsters with epic feats, despite the large number of WotC monsters in the MMII, Fiend Folio, and MMIII that meet this criteria. (I /think/ there may be a sidebar on one of the demons from the Fiend Folio suggesting some epic feat substitutions.) It’s too bad, since several epic feats would be very useful for any big baddie: Blinding Speed, Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Epic Toughness, Improved Combat Reflexes, and Superior Initiative.

 

[Sammael]

Generally speaking, monsters don't get ability bonuses from Hit Dice (unless their size category changes through advancement). This is applied oddly in the MM, but that's just the way it is.

Actually...

Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Actually...

I was referring to an "already reached" oddity, actually. Most monsters start with base scores of 3 10s and 3 11s, and you can see that some monsters have HD bonuses already included (4 to 7 HD, 4 odd and 2 even stats), but others don't.

 

[Nail]

.....But there is almost no precedent for outfitting 21+ HD monsters with epic feats, despite the large number of WotC monsters in the MMII, Fiend Folio, and MMIII that meet this criteria.....

See, this is the thing I stumbled over. There are just no precedents of any sort.

Moreover, the MM rules never mention the Epic rules, even the limited sub-set in the DMG (3.5e).

Reading the MM rules, there is just no clue at all that you should use Epic rules. So my initial conclusion was: "Fine, then I won't use 'em."

......

 

[Nail]

Most monsters start with base scores of 3 10s and 3 11s, and you can see that some monsters have HD bonuses already included (4 to 7 HD, 4 odd and 2 even stats), but others don't.

And this too struck me as odd.

Keep in mind, in my particular case I'm talking about advancing a (non-draconic, mostly core) monster from less than 20 HD to well over 20 HD. I already "get" that the initial monster (as listed in the MM) doesn't get +1 ability score per 4 HD.

As my players peruse these boards, I'm lothe to post the write up.

Spoiler

(Yes, yes, yes. I know about spoiler tags.)

 

[ruleslawyer]

The rules for epic are in the sidebar at p.25, and despite substantial back-and-forth on this topic, they haven't materially changed. In short, the rules are as follows:

1) Regardless of racial HD and/or class levels, a creature with an ECL of 21 or higher is considered "epic" for purposes of taking epic feats and PrCs. ("Epic" skill uses are not limited to epic characters, and anyone with the requisite skill mods can use them. If I'm a 1st-level character who gets a +100 circumstance bonus to Balance checks by the will of the Great God Oozlebah, I can walk on clouds too!)

2) A creature with a character level (racial HD + class levels) of 21 or higher uses the EAB and epic save bonus progressions for any class levels (NOT racial HD) that are gained once its character level is above 20. Thus, a storm giant (19 HD) Ftr1 gains +1 BAB and +2 Fort/+0 Ref/+0 Will saves from its fighter level (its 20th character level) as normal, but begins EAB and epic save progression immediately upon acquiring its 2nd fighter level (its 21st character level).

The +1 ability point/4 HD or levels is not an epic vs. non-epic issue; an advanced creature always gets those, regardless of whether it's being advanced from 10 HD to 20 HD or 20 HD to 40 HD.

 

[BOZ]

basically, any monster with 18-20 HD would have 7 regular feats (plus any bonus). then, beyond that HD range, you can choose whether to give it additional regular feats, or epic feats. WotC just generally chooses not to use epic feats.

 

[Nail]

The rules for epic are in the sidebar at p.25, ....

p. 207, DMG, I presume.