do high HD monsters use epic progressions

[Darkness]

basically, any monster with 18-20 HD would have 7 regular feats (plus any bonus). then, beyond that HD range, you can choose whether to give it additional regular feats, or epic feats. WotC just generally chooses not to use epic feats.

Reminds me of what I'm going to do with the Tarrasque's 6 Toughness feats should I ever use the critter...

 

[Garnfellow]

The rules for epic are in the sidebar at p.25, and despite substantial back-and-forth on this topic, they haven't materially changed. In short, the rules are as follows:

1) Regardless of racial HD and/or class levels, a creature with an ECL of 21 or higher is considered "epic" for purposes of taking epic feats and PrCs. ("Epic" skill uses are not limited to epic characters, and anyone with the requisite skill mods can use them. If I'm a 1st-level character who gets a +100 circumstance bonus to Balance checks by the will of the Great God Oozlebah, I can walk on clouds too!)

I don't have the 3.5 books handy, but I thought there was /still/ some confusion over just when monsters qualified for epicness -- one place in the DMG says "ECL," meaning racial HD + class levels + level adjustment, while another place says "character level," meaning just racial HD + class levels. Or has WotC clarified the matter in a FAQ?

 

[BOZ]

/me flees in terror

 

[Garnfellow]

/me flees in terror

Is that from Darkness's epic-tricked Tarrasque, or my question about when monsters qualify for epicness. (Personally, I think my question is scarier.)

 

[ruleslawyer]

Probably from your question, the likes of which does engender some, er, serious discussion on these boards.

In short, the DMG does NOT state that character level (as opposed to ECL) 21 or higher is required for access to epic feats and PrCs. That statement is instead made in the 3.5 FAQ:

When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?
A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level is equal to its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.)
A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level.

Now, this is the crazy thing about the FAQ. It references p.25 of the ELH, which explicitly states that ECL is the qualifying metric for epic feats, and then contradicts that source directly! I e-mailed Andy Collins about this over a year ago, and this is what he said:

Originally e-mailed by Andy Collins on November 4, 2003:

I don't know why the FAQ disagrees with the ELH. (It also seems to
disagree with the epic rules presented in version 3.5 of the DMG.)

Personally, I'd stick with the actual rules rather than the FAQ, but that
call is up to the DM.

In short, I'd say the primary source rules here. The ELH and DMG both say ECL, so I, at least, believe that ECL is the correct metric. However, I'm certainly sympathetic to arguments the other way. IMC, I use CR for NPCs to determine when creatures qualify for epic feats; I personally don't think that a greater fire elemental should be entitled to epic feats purely on the basis of its 21 HD.

 

[Garnfellow]

Probably from your question, the likes of which does engender some, er, serious discussion on these boards.

Thanks for a very nice summary of the issues.

 

[Urbannen]

Sorry, my pet peeve

"Originally e-mailed by Andy Collins on November 4, 2003:

I don't know why the FAQ disagrees with the ELH. (It also seems to
disagree with the epic rules presented in version 3.5 of the DMG.)

Personally, I'd stick with the actual rules rather than the FAQ, but that
call is up to the DM."

OMG! The fact that he didn't even understand the issue just clinches my opinion of him. The truth is that several sources describe the process of epic monster advancement differently. There are many inconsistencies between and within ELH, Savage Species, the 3.5 DMG, and the FAQ. WotC clearly have not made up their collective minds about this matter. The fact that the FAQ references a passage that it soundly contradicts illustrates how poorly WotC understands the issue. Savage Species, I believe, uses the HD progression into epic benefits rather than the ECL progression. Personally I believe that is the only consistent way to apply the epic rules.

According to the 3.5 DMG, a monster that does not have a Level adjustment cannot gain epic level benefits, or rather there are no epic-level rules given for monsters that do not have character levels. This answers the question of this thread.

Of course, the example given in the 3.5 DMG p. 209 for epic monster advancement is a problematic one. According to the example, the 3 HD bugbear Frt14/Blackguard 3 has an ECL of 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.

Problem one is that the character actually has an ECL of 21, since the level adjustment for a bugbear is +1, not +2.

The major problem is that the character has 20 total HD but it apparently uses the Epic advancement rules for its last two HD of advancement rather than the normal advancement for its class. This is quite different than the rules of advancement for characters without level adjustments. In fact, it leads to this character having a lower BAB than an equivalent character with no level adjustment.

If the character's most recent two levels were in blackguard, than normally he would gain the following bonuses for Blackguard levels 2 and 3: BAB +2, Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +1. Using the Epic progression, he would instead get: BAB +1, Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +1. His BAB would actually be lower than that of an equivalent character without a LA.

The FAQ manner of epic progression is a consistent way to handle epic progression for all characters, regardless of LA. Although the 3.5 epic monster character rules are more internally consistent than those in the ELH, they still create separate systems of epic-level advancement for creatures with different level adjustments. Additionally the FAQ manner of epic-level monster advancement opens the way for high HD monsters to have Epic-level feats.

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

Well after using a CR 20 stone giant cleric I house ruled that a monster can have epic feats if it have 21+ HDS AND CR 20+, because the CR 20 stone giant had automatic quicken spell 2 times and the feat that alowed to cast another quiken spell (nowadays it should be extra swift action...) and started the fight casting 3 flame stikes on the pcs. But I have to let a ECL 21 (half celestial centaur paladin) PC to use epic feats because would be unfair to him as all the other PCs started using epic feats at 21 level...

 

[Kalanyr]

How can a CR 20 stone giant cleric have automatic quicken spell even once ? Base CR 8 (14 HD), needs to be a 17th level cleric to get 9th level spells.

Ah, I see you treated cleric as a non-associated class, which has the wierd effect of making a Stone Giant Cleric 17, a CR 18 encounter (not particularly accurate then again its not the CR 25 3e would have suggested either). I don't think this is a flaw in the Epic HD rules I think this is a flaw in the CR rules. I'd peg such an encounter as around CR 21. Lets see for a CR of 20 it would have been a Stone Giant Cleric 19, so probably around a CR 23 IMO.

IMO Epic rules should not kick in until a creature has 21 (HD+Class Levels), and they should kick in form there on out, doing otherwise really screws up PrC requirements and feat pre-requisites as well. It'd be nice to see some consistancy in WoTC products though.

Edit - I wouldn't mind using ECL (PC) or CR (Foes) 21 for Epic Feat allowance but 21 HD for the change to Epic BAB and Saves. I think that might actually work.

 

[ruleslawyer]

"Originally e-mailed by Andy Collins on November 4, 2003:

I don't know why the FAQ disagrees with the ELH. (It also seems to
disagree with the epic rules presented in version 3.5 of the DMG.)

Personally, I'd stick with the actual rules rather than the FAQ, but that
call is up to the DM."

OMG! The fact that he didn't even understand the issue just clinches my opinion of him. The truth is that several sources describe the process of epic monster advancement differently. There are many inconsistencies between and within ELH, Savage Species, the 3.5 DMG, and the FAQ. WotC clearly have not made up their collective minds about this matter. The fact that the FAQ references a passage that it soundly contradicts illustrates how poorly WotC understands the issue. Savage Species, I believe, uses the HD progression into epic benefits rather than the ECL progression. Personally I believe that is the only consistent way to apply the epic rules.

I disagree. You're failing to recognize the difference between being "epic" for purposes of qualifying for epic feats and being "epic" for purposes of kicking off EAB and epic save bonus progression. SavS, being neither a handbook for epic play nor a 3.5 source, is probably not the best source for determining epic-level benefits qualification.

According to the 3.5 DMG, a monster that does not have a Level adjustment cannot gain epic level benefits, or rather there are no epic-level rules given for monsters that do not have character levels. This answers the question of this thread.

Absolutely untrue. A monster can have an ECL of 21 or higher regardless of what its level adjustment is stated to be in its MM entry. "Level Adjustment: -" doesn't mean the creature has no ECL, only that it is unsuitable for non-epic play. See the "Monsters as Races" section in the MM for detailed explanation.

Of course, the example given in the 3.5 DMG p. 209 for epic monster advancement is a problematic one. According to the example, the 3 HD bugbear Frt14/Blackguard 3 has an ECL of 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.

[SNIP

Here I agree. They just got the example wrong, which is why you should use the ELH rather than the DMG, because it is more on point and has a better-written epic section![/quote]

The FAQ manner of epic progression is a consistent way to handle epic progression for all characters, regardless of LA.... Additionally the FAQ manner of epic-level monster advancement opens the way for high HD monsters to have Epic-level feats.

I absolutely disagree. The ELH rules are by far the more consistent, because they allow ECL creatures to gain epic feats at the appropriate level without being penalized by requiring early adoption of EAB and epic save bonus progressions. If you use the FAQ ruling, then a half-fiend half-dragon troll (6 HD, LA +12) can't take a single epic feat until it has 15 class levels, by which time (ECL 33) its non-LA counterparts will have had access to epic feats for twelve(!) character levels. That is simply grossly unfair. The two-tier system on ELH p.25, OTOH, allows all characters to qualify for epic feats at the same amount of XP/monster power level (ECL), but also allows all characters to pick up 20 HD worth of attack and save bonuses before being forced into the EAB and epic save progressions. It is thus the fairer model.