Ruleslawyer, haven't we had this discussion before, sometime in the distant past?
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"You're failing to recognize the difference between being "epic" for purposes of qualifying for epic feats and being "epic" for purposes of kicking off EAB and epic save bonus progression. SavS, being neither a handbook for epic play nor a 3.5 source, is probably not the best source for determining epic-level benefits qualification."
The thing is, I'm not the only one. Although I understand that in many people's minds, characters "qualify" for epic level feats when their ECL reaches 21 and that they use the epic bonus progression when their character level reaches 21, I challenge you to find any WotC rulebook where monster epic progression is explicitly explained that way. I took my example straight from the 3.5 DMG. If you'll check the example with the bugbear that I mentioned, the author of that section does not make the distinction.
The FAQ writer did not explicitly refer to SS when he explained epic monster advancement. Perhaps the SS version is just one of many floating around WotC. I imagine he assumed without reading it that ELH sidebar said the same thing as whatever source he was using. The thing is, the ELH rules on monsters character epic advancement are, as written, completely bonkers if you read what the ELH literally says about epic advancement. I mean read it literally. Don't just look at it and say, "Oh, they mean X." The rules say that characters gain a feat at level 21, and that that feat can be an epic feat. The sidebar says that you use epic advancement once a monster-character's ECL hits 21. That means that the monster-character gets a feat at ECL 21, not at HD 21. A drow character would get a feat at character level 18 and character level 19 based on what the ELH literally says.
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"Absolutely untrue. A monster can have an ECL of 21 or higher regardless of what its level adjustment is stated to be in its MM entry. "Level Adjustment: -" doesn't mean the creature has no ECL, only that it is unsuitable for non-epic play. See the "Monsters as Races" section in the MM for detailed explanation."
The MM says Effective Character Level represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the PHB. A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. The DMG gives rules on how to advance a monster character based on its ECL: you use its ECL instead of its class levels. This still doesn't explain how to determine the ECL of a monster without a LA. You can't add some number and nil (-). There are creatures with a zero LA. That you can add with HD and class levels to come up with ECL. But based on the rules in the MM, you can't come up with an ECL for a monster without a LA, because you only have part of the equation. ECL = HD + class levels + LA, not HD + class levels.
Also the DMG section on "Monsters as Races" (I assume that's what you meant), doesn't say that creatures lack LA's because they are unsuitable for non-epic play. At least I couldn't find the passage. P. 311 of the MM says that if a creature does not have a LA, then it cannot be used as the basis for interesting, viable player characters. (Actually it says that if a monster can be a viable PC, then it has a LA. The contrapositive, which must also be true, is if it doesn't have an LA, then it can't be a viable PC.)
I'm not saying that creatures with LAs of (-) can't have ECLs. I'm just saying that WotC has not provided any method of determining their ECL up until this point. And unless there is a means of determining a creature's an ECL, then there is no means of giving it epic level benefits if you are using the 3.5 DMG, or I think, the ELH.
Anyway, I would challenge you to reread the ELH and other epic monster advancement rules found in WotC products. Based on what these books literally say, I think you'll find that the FAQ version of the rules is by far the simplest and most consistent way of doing things: A creature is epic when its HD equals 21+.
Quote
"You're failing to recognize the difference between being "epic" for purposes of qualifying for epic feats and being "epic" for purposes of kicking off EAB and epic save bonus progression. SavS, being neither a handbook for epic play nor a 3.5 source, is probably not the best source for determining epic-level benefits qualification."
The thing is, I'm not the only one. Although I understand that in many people's minds, characters "qualify" for epic level feats when their ECL reaches 21 and that they use the epic bonus progression when their character level reaches 21, I challenge you to find any WotC rulebook where monster epic progression is explicitly explained that way. I took my example straight from the 3.5 DMG. If you'll check the example with the bugbear that I mentioned, the author of that section does not make the distinction.
The FAQ writer did not explicitly refer to SS when he explained epic monster advancement. Perhaps the SS version is just one of many floating around WotC. I imagine he assumed without reading it that ELH sidebar said the same thing as whatever source he was using. The thing is, the ELH rules on monsters character epic advancement are, as written, completely bonkers if you read what the ELH literally says about epic advancement. I mean read it literally. Don't just look at it and say, "Oh, they mean X." The rules say that characters gain a feat at level 21, and that that feat can be an epic feat. The sidebar says that you use epic advancement once a monster-character's ECL hits 21. That means that the monster-character gets a feat at ECL 21, not at HD 21. A drow character would get a feat at character level 18 and character level 19 based on what the ELH literally says.
Quote:
"Absolutely untrue. A monster can have an ECL of 21 or higher regardless of what its level adjustment is stated to be in its MM entry. "Level Adjustment: -" doesn't mean the creature has no ECL, only that it is unsuitable for non-epic play. See the "Monsters as Races" section in the MM for detailed explanation."
The MM says Effective Character Level represents a creature's overall power relative to that of a character from the PHB. A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment. The DMG gives rules on how to advance a monster character based on its ECL: you use its ECL instead of its class levels. This still doesn't explain how to determine the ECL of a monster without a LA. You can't add some number and nil (-). There are creatures with a zero LA. That you can add with HD and class levels to come up with ECL. But based on the rules in the MM, you can't come up with an ECL for a monster without a LA, because you only have part of the equation. ECL = HD + class levels + LA, not HD + class levels.
Also the DMG section on "Monsters as Races" (I assume that's what you meant), doesn't say that creatures lack LA's because they are unsuitable for non-epic play. At least I couldn't find the passage. P. 311 of the MM says that if a creature does not have a LA, then it cannot be used as the basis for interesting, viable player characters. (Actually it says that if a monster can be a viable PC, then it has a LA. The contrapositive, which must also be true, is if it doesn't have an LA, then it can't be a viable PC.)
I'm not saying that creatures with LAs of (-) can't have ECLs. I'm just saying that WotC has not provided any method of determining their ECL up until this point. And unless there is a means of determining a creature's an ECL, then there is no means of giving it epic level benefits if you are using the 3.5 DMG, or I think, the ELH.
Anyway, I would challenge you to reread the ELH and other epic monster advancement rules found in WotC products. Based on what these books literally say, I think you'll find that the FAQ version of the rules is by far the simplest and most consistent way of doing things: A creature is epic when its HD equals 21+.
