Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[howandwhy99]

Psion's law has been utterly disregarded. Worlds are now built by extrapolating upon what the rules actually create vs. having the world dictate what rules are used. Everything not SuperMagiTech is left behind or requires a massive d20 overhaul.

Destroy the attraction of magic and you've destroyed the game for a majority of players. To claim all old players have been duped all this time is even more insulting.

The DMG was OFF LIMITS to the players. Learning how magic items worked was to be as shocking, terrifying, and wondrous as learning what a module had in store for you. If the players CHEATED and knew them all, you're going to have to alter every one or make new ones. Ditto on monsters and the MM.

The fact that the PCs are assumed to metagame know this massive list of mass produced magic items also assumes that the world must be of a magic level beyond almost all fantasy fiction. How are we to play out our fantasy worlds when the default rules presume absurdity?

 

[Numion]

Where did you play D&D? This is totally outside my experience. If this historical revisionism is widely believed, we've jumped the shark. Science has pervaded the core thinking of this crazy thread. Nothing is unknown. Nothing is unpredictable.

Nobody's saying that. Just that most of magic has always been predictable. There has always been a list of spells - with complete effects listed that are quite predictable. There are a couple of exceptions, like Wish and Limited Wish (and Miracle in 3E).

There has always been a similar list in the DMG for magic items. Almost all were and still are quite predictable. The exceptions like wand/rod of wonder and deck of many things are the exceptions.

Rose colored glasses in action once again. Magic would still seem unpredictable to a player just starting 3E just as it did for us when we started 1E. But once you've read the rules, there's no going back in either system. The system is what it is once you know it, in both systems. I claim that it's quite predictable in both editions due to the fact that 99% of magical effects are well defined and predictable. Potion miscability table or wand of wonder doesn't change this.

Nothing is outside of easy reach.

I don't know about that. All editions of D&D provide a wide array of things for the DM to make the reach as difficult or as easy as they please.

To withhold an option is to oppress the players.

No need to hyperbole, even if it was kinda your thing judging by your earlier posts.

 

[Numion]

The DMG was OFF LIMITS to the players. Learning how magic items worked was to be as shocking, terrifying, and wondrous as learning what a module had in store for you. If the players CHEATED and knew them all, you're going to have to alter every one or make new ones. Ditto on monsters and the MM.

It would be a loss to the game if anyone who's ever DMed a game could no longer function as a player. 60% of my current group do both.

 

[molonel]

Destroy the attraction of magic and you've destroyed the game for a majority of players. To claim all old players have been duped all this time is even more insulting.

Oh, baloney. The magicalness of magic has never sustained D&D. It is a spice, just like any other spice. Some people use more of it. Some people use less. If I had to play in a game where magic was this unpredictable thing where two potions might make my stomach blow up, and at any moment my +1 sword might turn into a wet noodle - because hey, magic is UNPREDICTABLE! - or a block of stinky cheese, then that wouldn't be any fun, either.

D&D is a game that people play to have fun. The magicalness of magic is only one element, and frankly, not one of the most important ones, either.

Since people are complaining about the customization of magic items, and how this makes magic more available, and yet, destroys the game while D&D is presently enjoying it's largest success is an odd contortion of the facts before us.

The DMG was OFF LIMITS to the players. Learning how magic items worked was to be as shocking, terrifying, and wondrous as learning what a module had in store for you. If the players CHEATED and knew them all, you're going to have to alter every one or make new ones. Ditto on monsters and the MM.

Whatever. We all combed through the DMG back in 1st Edition, too, and told the DM what sort of items we wanted. We metagamed and powergamed like a bunch of mad little fiends. Just like people now.

The fact that the PCs are assumed to metagame know this massive list of mass produced magic items also assumes that the world must be of a magic level beyond almost all fantasy fiction. How are we to play out our fantasy worlds when the default rules presume absurdity?

Because the DM controls the rules. That's written into the rules. You are given a baseline, and then you pick and choose what you want. Just like always.

 

[Victim]

It would be a loss to the game if anyone who's ever DMed a game could no longer function as a player. 60% of my current group do both.

Exactly. Everyone is my current group has DM'd at one point (with varying degrees of success). Even in the old school game club I played with at college, most peopled had DM'd DnD at least.

 

[scriven]

That has pretty much been the way every edition of D&D has treated magic items in practice. The rhetoric has been different, but the mechanics have always pointed towards the commoditization of magic items. The only difference now is that the rhetoric is finnaly being altered to match what the rules have always said.

Perhaps I've misunderstood, because that seems demonstrably false. Suppose that a player presents his DM with a list of magic items and says, "I want to buy these. I should be able to." In 3E, there are rules he could quote to support his assertion. In 1E, there aren't. He could use in-game arguments such as those presented in this thread, but they'd only get him as far as the conclusion that there should exist magic items for sale in the game world. The likelihood of finding the specific items on his list would be vanishingly small.

Surely that's a difference?

 

[howandwhy99]

I am trying to figure out whether you are engaging in hyperbole to make a point, or if you really think the things you post. If it is the latter, I'd personally like to apologize to you on behalf of Wizards of the Coast, the 3rd Edition Design team and whatever DM hurt you like that.

Hyperbole. I'm hoping the extrapolation of the ideas some are suggesting here might help show how false they are.

 

[drothgery]

Yes they would. Experience is a river.

Does sarcasm need to be pointed out in 18-point bold type now?

 

[IcyCool]

Whatever. We all combed through the DMG back in 1st Edition, too, and told the DM what sort of items we wanted. We metagamed and powergamed like a bunch of mad little fiends. Just like people now.

Not all of us. Of course, if you meant "we" in the royal sense, then you might well be correct. My group didn't comb through the DMG back then (aside from the two GM's). Now? Now you'll get labelled "overcontrolling" or a "Bad DM" if you so much as ask a player not to comb through the DMG or MM.

Because the DM controls the rules. That's written into the rules. You are given a baseline, and then you pick and choose what you want. Just like always.

Didn't they remove Rule Zero from the 3.5 DMG?

 

[painandgreed]

::shudder::
That's one of those idea that would, if a DM I played under suggested such a thing, make me roll up a Vow of Poverty Half-Orc Monk.

Heh. You probably don't want to know what I've done to half-orcs.

Exotic weapons require an extra feat. I see nothing special about requiring same for exotic armors. Either that or upping the + bonus for such a power. Perhaps something like the dancing ability for weapons whcih seems to be the same power but more powerful because the weilder doesn't have to operate the sheild first.


back on topic:

Then, one might just as well say that the city is a magic shop, in the same way that one might say "a +1 sword is a +1 sword". The mechanics are the same, right? That's all that counts, right? In which case, the idea isn't a strawman.

I'd say no. There is a difference between having "magic shops" and hand waving the long tedious search among a variety of stores and sources while playing D&D. The former is definatly a matter of flavor to the campaign setting, and the second is a game aid to save time. (Of course, either one could be both.) Just letting the players pick their weapons out of the DMG can take a good hour. Role playing everything, let alone figuring out what might or might not be avaiable at any give second, means no adventuring is happening that game session. They are as different as teleportation or a long boring train ride when not role playing the train ride. Just because my CoC investigators ride a train does not mean they teleport.