Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[dcas]

Role playing everything, let alone figuring out what might or might not be avaiable at any give second, means no adventuring is happening that game session.

Exactly. This will then encourage the players to take their characters adventuring for loot and magic instead of poking around town looking for it.

 

[MerricB]

You can ASK your players not to look at it, but you were lucky back in 1st Edition if your players didn't read through the modules you were running.

It seems like you had really bad players. I wasn't looking through my DM's modules in the day. I agree that the DMG wasn't off-limits, but adventures? They definitely were.

Cheers!

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I think the DMG (and the MM, etc.) should be off-limits to players at the table.

I've got no beef about declaring the MM (and all monster and adventure related books) off limits but half of the DMG is rules that the players should know about, or at least it would help if the players understood. I routinely look stuff up in the DMG while the GM is running in the background just to make sure we are playing correctly. We try to offload as much work amongst the players as possible to make it non-brain-straining for everyone involved.

DS

 

[howandwhy99]

Okay, then, obviously they're not talking to you. They're talking to the DMs who want to know whether or not magic shops should be available and whether or not they should give the PC's the items they want.

The answer, as far as the core rules are concerned is, "Sure. It's good to let PC's customize themselves."

They are talking to the community at large. "Start using magic shops in your game! It will work better! Be more fun!"

The reason I don't include them: It is NOT more fun. It is reading the spoilers of the mystery novel before the novel. I don't need a community of players duped into believing otherwise.

That was bunk before even the DMG came out. You find Tim Kask (IIRC) admitting in Eldritch Wizardry that players would read the rulebooks.

I'm sorry you and Tim Kask find it bunk. I'd hate to have to play like that.

Gary makes particular note that new players should not read the DMG - which I totally agree with. Let them discover the game through play, when everything is wondrous. But experienced players who also wish to DM?

Like you mentioned earlier in the thread, rework the monsters to keep them fresh. Introduce new magic items your old players don't know. Remember when Pcat put that monster encounter in "Of Sound Mind" that was so unique? Yeah, like that.


EDIT: stepping out for a minute

 

[MerricB]

Exactly. This will then encourage the players to take their characters adventuring for loot and magic instead of poking around town looking for it.

LOL!

Very nice.

I just use judgement calls on whether something is available or not - especially if they want it in a limited time. I'll be happy with the new Gather Information rules in the MIC to make that easier. Oh, and commissions are very useful - if it takes a month to upgrade an item, then are they able to wait?

Cheers!

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Predictability is a requirement of the DM to run the game. It's what the players are their to learn IC in game. The fact that the spell lists are in all AD&D editions and now spells are considered "ubiquitiously known, easily trusted, and repeatedly predictable in the gameworld" means they are nothing less than science. So, yes. Spell lists belong in a DM-only DMG. Along with magic items. Once your players know them, change 'em.

Purely IMO but this sounds like a horribly unfun way to play what should be an entertaining game. It effectively makes a magic-oriented character impossible by taking away all knowledge of the player. They may know that they have a spell but they have no idea what it really does, it's simply the DM turning their magic into a plot device of whatever manner they think appropriate at the moment.

EDIT: And yes I find it appropriate that magic should behave predictably. In the D&D genre magic has always seemed to behave as if it WAS their version of science and I have no trouble handling it that way.

 

[molonel]

It seems like you had really bad players. I wasn't looking through my DM's modules in the day. I agree that the DMG wasn't off-limits, but adventures? They definitely were.

Cheers!

The fact that we were in 8th grade MIGHT have had something to do with that.

And we had LOADS of fun, so no, I'd say they were great players.

Even the kid who said with a completely straight face that he rolled all 18s on 3d6, in order.

 

[MerricB]

They were in order. He just left out all the other rolls in-between.

(I have seen a player roll 18, 18, 18, 17, 16, 14 on 4d6, though).

Cheers!

 

[Vocenoctum]

Ahhh... yes. But what some are arguing is that in fact any town can be treated as 'Wal-Magic' in abstraction.

Making note of course that not every town has a sizeable store of magic items. GP limits still apply.

That is to say, while there is no vast warehouse selling every item in the DMG (below a certain monetary value) out of the same door, in practice the effect should be the same. Whatever actual imaginary institutions exist in thier game world is irrelevant, because they themselves have argued that such imaginary institutions should not come into play so that (from the perspective of a player in such a campaign) there is no discernable difference between whatever those imaginary institutions might be and shopping at 'Wal-Magic'.

The simple fact is that flavor is, was, and ever shall be up to the DM and the campaign. This is the same as every edition of D&D. When folks say "walmagic is illogical, the security concerns alone!" and we point out that "walmagic" was never our side of the discussion, the other side suddenly decides that it's not about the issues of Wal-Magic".

Now, they justify this abstraction by noting that in practice most people treat mundane goods in much the same way most of the time. If you need torches, food, and so forth, you acquire it with a handwave from some abstract equivalent of a large general supply store (Wal-Medieval?). And, to a large extent this is true. But, what some others of us are trying to suggest is that while its probably a perfectly reasonable assumption to assume that mundane things appropriate to a setting are available in a large town, the same assumption is not necessarily true of any given setting with regards to things which are by definition not-mundane.

Actually, the supposition I make is that a 100,000 gp item, whether a magical staff or a bejeweled crown fit for a king, is available somewhere for a price.

The fact that it's magical doesn't make it uber-special, so much as the fact it's a 100,000gp item.


So, is a Vorpal Blade the same as a vial of oil? Of course not, it costs quite a bit more. Is it the same as a real high priced mundane gem? Still no, though the same value perhaps, the sword is useful.

 

[I'm A Banana]

They are talking to the community at large. "Start using magic shops in your game! It will work better! Be more fun!"

The reason I don't include them: It is NOT more fun. It is reading the spoilers of the mystery novel before the novel. I don't need a community of players duped into believing otherwise.

They're not trying to change you if you're happy doing what you're doing, they're just giving people suggestions that they see result in most people enjoying. People enjoy customizing themselves, having special magic items that fit their concept.

It's not a delusion or a lie, it's just a suggestion on what's good for most people. You're far too defensive about this.