Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[howandwhy99]

Because irrational reverence for a book makes the game better? :\

Because keeping magic in the game makes it better.

That was the off limits source.

 

[molonel]

Perhaps this is why modification was the norm?

Customization should be the norm for both DMs and players. That's why, as a DM/GM, having players customize and control their characters doesn't bother me in the slightest. I do it with the rest of the world.

My point is: magic is no longer magical. It's being pointed out as never having been magical. It is not unusual to here of players who regarded the original AD&D DMG with a bit of mystical regard.

It's called nostalgia.

I enjoy D&D now more than I ever have. I wish I could recover that feeling of playing AD&D as a 6th grader when I would roll the dice, and look up at my older brother and say, "What happened?" but that's not the game. I was a kid exploring something new.

And yes, even then, I powergamed and optimized as much as my juniorhighschool mind would allow. There were no message boards on the internet to read, otherwise I would have. Instead, I satisfied myself with whatever snippets I could sneak into the game from Dragon articles.

The game hasn't changed. You have. I have. We all have.

Probably, the game no longer seems magical because it's a different game than the one you played when you were younger.

Inflation dollar-wise? no. But yes, D&D only competed against the mimics and other games that came in its' wake.

D&D is doing fantastically in a world flooded with video games, knock-offs and alternate systems. They have accomplished more by staying afloat and prospering in a competitive market than previous editions did when they virtually owned the field. The former is more of an accomplishment than the latter, and more of a success. It's much easier to win when nobody else is playing.

I agree published materials don't have padlocks. So I make my own materials. How is this unimaginative? Magic can be mysterious in high or low magic worlds. What isn't mysterious is omniscient, metagaming players assuming all magical knowledge (and items) are known.

It's unimaginative if you insist that players can't touch certain books because that will RUIN THE MYSTERY of magic. I invent material all the time. I pull it from message boards like this one, or write it, or sponge out of other games and other books.

Nothing in the rules or the game says that players should be omniscient, or know everything, or that all magical items and magical knowledge is the purview of all players.

That's simply a straw man.

I'm free to change not allow magic shops in my game, sure. The difficulty is, no I have a community of players who believe this is how the game should be played. It even says so in the DMG. Splatbooks are aggravating the problem.

You are the DM. If you can't handle that responsibility, then don't run a game. I'm very clear with my players, and up front, that the rules in my game are consistent and will only change with notice. They are participants, after all, and cocreators of this world in which they play. But they shouldn't expect everything to work in the way in which they've always been accustomed. The rules give me that right, and if someone came to me in a game where I'd said that there wouldn't be magic shops, or magic items were rare or almost nonexistent (in, say, a Ravenloft or Midnight game, or a homebrew), I'd laugh in their face.

Nobody is always going to be happy with every game, and that was true before 3rd Edition came out, and it's going to always be true. There are substantial differences in gaming styles which are mutually exclusive and incompatible.

If you've been gaming this long, you knew that, though.

 

[Celebrim]

Just letting the players pick their weapons out of the DMG can take a good hour. Role playing everything, let alone figuring out what might or might not be avaiable at any give second, means no adventuring is happening that game session.

I believe that is the best argument advanced so far why magic items should not be available for sell under any normal circumstances. One hour picking thier weapons out of the DMG???

I'd pack my briefcase and go home, and seriously consider ending a campaign right there. You are @#$#@$#@$ right that no adventuring was happening there, and at least if the players were willing to RP out this silliness I wouldn't be bored to tears.

Or better yet, lets just go find the treasure in the dungeon/wilderness/wherever, don't you think?

 

[MerricB]

Every spell effect is narrated by the DM, no?

In my experience - and this is for all editions of the game from AD&D on - no.

Spell effects are adjudicated by the DM, but the level that the DM needs to adjudicate varies markedly. With a spell like magic missile, the player would roll dice needed, add the result, and tell the DM how much damage the orc took, which the DM would then note down. The DM's adjudication came to telling the player when the spell took place (esp. in 1e's complex initiative system), and keeping note of the orc's hit points.

Spells like web require more adjudication, of course.

The narration of the spell's effects (as in, making them seem colourful) is purely optional. "The fireball bursts and there's a series of loud screams from the orcs, which then fall silent as their scorched bodies lie where they fell." D&D's emphasis as a game changes from group to group. I tend for the more mechanical in combat ("The orcs die"), although I get more florid when describing magical areas and when roleplaying.

In 3e, it would be quite possible for the notes on the requirements needed to *escape* a web spell part of the DM-only information, noting only the basic information in the spell description, as was done for certain spells in the DMG. However, the splitting up of that information often causes more trouble than it's worth, and doesn't make the spell more magical - just more troublesome to adjudicate.

Cheers!

 

[molonel]

Every spell effect is narrated by the DM, no?

Quite frankly, no.

Sometimes, a wizard just says, "I drop a fireball .... here." Then he counts off the squares, rolls damage and I pull figurines or Pente pieces or M&Ms or whatever happens to represent the bad guys off the map if they die.

Or the cleric says, "I cast Cure Serious Wounds" and rolls how much damage she heals, and it's done.

Sometimes, it's story important.

Other times, I couldn't care less.

Magic is not the star of the show. Sometimes, it's just woven into the background like any other story element. I don't have to hit the spotlight every time a spell is cast, and dim the lights, and say, "Okay, folks. This is magical spell. Try not to scream, ladies!"

These are all part of it. Why not have magic be magical too? I mean, it's right there. It's what makes fantasy different than, say, playing normal people in 2007. Why limit the potential for fun?

Because my players are the most important element of the story. Not the Magicalness of Magic. Magic is simply one element of a story alongside a cornucopia of others. I can play a game without magic. I can't play a game without my players.

Well, I can. But that really WOULD be a videogame.

I'm thinking some of this may be related to my previous post on the world being bizarro. Players make the story, DMs set up the mystery of the world and rules - consistent and predictable behind-the-scenes, but still unknown.

See, I get tired of playing hide the hamster with rules. The world itself is far more interesting than trying to keep players guessing when spells are going to blow up in their faces or wondering if their magical sword is going to sag like a limp noodle at any given moment/ (Because hey! It's MAGIC! It's UNPREDICTABLE!)

There are certainly unknown elements in the world, and mystery. But the standard tools that players use SHOULD be reliable. Getting enveloped with your own fireball is fun, I guess. The first time. But not the second or the third or fourth/fifth/sixth time it happens.

Then, it just becomes a running gag.

I much prefer the mystery of when players encounter a being they've never encountered before, and drop the ever-so-reliable fireball .... to no effect. Or watch in horror as it heals the monster, instead of killing it.

That is mystery.

Not making the players feel like Keystone Cops tripping over their own feet every time they cast a spell.

 

[MerricB]

I believe that is the best argument advanced so far why magic items should not be available for sell under any normal circumstances. One hour picking thier weapons out of the DMG???

Heh.

I believe I mentioned earlier (might not have been in this thread, but anyway), that the increased customisation of their characters gives something for the players to do away from the game table, thus increasing their involvement in the game as a whole.

I think this is to the good.

Instead of the DM being the only one involved in the game when everyone is not on an adventure, everyone can be involved. The DM can plan the next adventure, the PCs can plan their advancement: feat choices, skill choices, and, now, magic item choices.

Although there have been times in my Age of Worms game when everyone sits down at the game table and deals with advancement together (new levels, magic items and the like), mostly this this takes place away from the table; it's something I encourage. The players will e-mail me with requests, "Can I buy a belt of magnificence +6?", and I'll reply in the negative or affirmative, with any other conditions.

The players looking through the DMG at the table for things to buy is something I generally discourage. I am uncertain if it is the norm, though.

Cheers!

 

[painandgreed]

Or better yet, lets just go find the treasure in the dungeon/wilderness/wherever, don't you think?

You're obvisouly a narrativist getting angry over gamist play, neither of which I like because I'm a simulationist. You just don't get it.

Which goes to the idea that the question, "Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?" translates to "Is this (undefined) way of playing D&D badwrongfun?"

 

[molonel]

The narration of the spell's effects (as in, making them seem colourful) is purely optional. "The fireball bursts and there's a series of loud screams from the orcs, which then fall silent as their scorched bodies lie where they fell." D&D's emphasis as a game changes from group to group. I tend for the more mechanical in combat ("The orcs die"), although I get more florid when describing magical areas and when roleplaying.

I had a group of players who were accustomed to 1st Edition play in one of my games, and they were surprised - and extremely pleased - because I let THEM describe the effects of their special abilities or spells. My standing rule is that you can describe whatever you like, and add whatever flavor you prefer as long as it doesn't change the mechanics or effects. Your magic missiles can be throwing knives that materialize out of nowhere, or you can cup your hands and blow on glowing fireflies that materialize in your palm, or darts that you throw with unerring accuracy. But it still does 1d4+1 per missile.

I've had Shadowdancers that dissolved like sand blown away by the wind when they used Hide in Plain Sight, or shimmered into nothingness, or melded visibly with the shadows around them, or became 2-dimensional and visible only from a certain angle (to explain how those making their spot checks could see them, but they remained invisible to others).

 

[Thirsty]

I've been following this thread with interest and don't recall seeing any post discussing the biggest effect I have seen in my game with the introduction of readily tradeable magic items. Apologies if I have missed it.

I have found that being able to trade magic items easily has seen the interesting uses of unusual magic items disappear. Whereas before the players were inclined to keep all the magical items they found and try and put them to use in creative and interesting ways, now items fall into two categories: those to keep because they are immediately and/or obivously useful and those to sell because they are not.

While this has empowered the pc's it has detracted from the creativity of the game. This has my job as DM simpler as I no longer have to try and adjudicate effects where a magic item has been used for a purpose it is not obviously designed for (in most cases anyway ) but has made DM'ing the game less interesting for the same reason.

 

[MerricB]

I have found that being able to trade magic items easily has seen the interesting uses of unusual magic items disappear. Whereas before the players were inclined to keep all the magical items they found and try and put them to use in creative and interesting ways, now items fall into two categories: those to keep because they are immediately and/or obivously useful and those to sell because they are not.

Interesting. Could you give some examples of magic items people have used in creative ways?

I've certainly seen that happen with spells - and the expanded lists in the SC have just improved that. With magic items: not so much. Most of the magic items IME don't have that many interesting uses outside the obvious. The great and creative items tend to be obvious in their effect, like the hat of disguise. Meanwhile, the poor helm of underwater action remains obvious and dull.

One of the reasons I like the MIC so much is that it allows more interesting effects, combines them with a price that either says, "buy me, buy me!" or "don't sell me!", and the key items can be combined with Big 6 effects so as not to quickly become obsolete.

Cheers!