Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[howandwhy99]

I've been following this thread with interest and don't recall seeing any post discussing the biggest effect I have seen in my game with the introduction of readily tradeable magic items. Apologies if I have missed it.

I have found that being able to trade magic items easily has seen the interesting uses of unusual magic items disappear. Whereas before the players were inclined to keep all the magical items they found and try and put them to use in creative and interesting ways, now items fall into two categories: those to keep because they are immediately and/or obivously useful and those to sell because they are not.

While this has empowered the pc's it has detracted from the creativity of the game. This has my job as DM simpler as I no longer have to try and adjudicate effects where a magic item has been used for a purpose it is not obviously designed for (in most cases anyway ) but has made DM'ing the game less interesting for the same reason.

Part of it has to do with the fast and furious playstyle where multiple, very common magic items are found on everything killed. It's hard to keep things interesting when you find 10 magic +1 swords after raiding an orc outpost.

As to customization of the PCs by players, I'm all for it. However, my view is: the players design their character, I design the world. As magic items are part of the world, a treasure for PCs, not a right, they are under the DM's purview. I don't let them choose what countries they get to run OOG either.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Actually, I would assume neither is to be found. I would assume that either could be commissioned for a price, but noone makes an item like a 100,000 gp crown and then just hopes to find a buyer for it at some point. Find someone that can do the work and then wait a few months.

This is why I used the modern explanation of a gun shop selling 100,000$ shotguns earlier in the thread. They do exist, there are more than a dozen in the USA alone. These guns are in stock. They are not assembly line, they are finely crafted by artisans.

The question then becomes, "Are people that can make high quality jewelry more or less common than those that can make top end magical items?" And the answer to that question is I think fairly obvious based on even the most modern interpretations of the abundence of high level spellcasters.

This isn't a normal crown that's a lump of gold in the shape of a hat though. A 100,000 gp crown is crafted by an artisan. It is a lot more customized than a set of Eyes of Petrification. Either way, finding such an item would require travel to a hub of the world. The market for such items would be pretty limited in the world, only the PC's and others like them. In addition, this doesn't mean that someone crafted it for resale. He may have crafted it to use himself, or discovered it in an ancient tomb. The only thing that stretchs reality is saying that the PC's are the only ones that could ever have discovered one of these items.

Besides, I don't have a problem with PC's custom ordering items, but I believe the process can easily be glossed over rather than roleplaying out a long search for the Eyes. Heck, at high levels where such powerful items would be uncommon, you could be going to the secret portal behind 7-11 and treating with a Celestial Fence to see what he has.

Then the discussion shifts instead to whether you want to micromanage and roleplay every encounter or whether you can gloss over certain facts. This comes down to the Player/DM contract and what the game intends, rather than the focus of whether magic items should be available at all.

If you want to change that, you are free to do so but I'll have a bit more respect for your ability to craft a setting if in changing that the setting changes with it. For example, someone mentioned a 'Dreamlands' campaign. In that case it fits. In most cases, I don't see it fitting.

Aside from Eberron, or Faerun, or any other setting where economic power can be gained by the trade in magic items?

A magical item worth 100,000 gp on the other hand is a legend, a mighty peice of magic of renown, the stuff of heroes, and grasping it in your hand imparts some of that to you and if it is any other way in your campaign I feel that you are cheating yourself.

Too much of this discussion focuses on the "cool" magic items. Does the Longsword Sword +2 Holy Dragonbane Flaming Ghost Touch have a nice backstory and out class the 100,000 gp crown in style points. Do the Eyes of Petrification have some story? Staff of the Woodlands, Manual of Bodily Health get stories too? At high levels, the PC's will have a good amount of such items, does every single item get a story?

Sometimes Gauntlets of Dexterity are just Gauntlets of Dexterity.

 

[howandwhy99]

Interesting. Could you give some examples of magic items people have used in creative ways?

Ellisandra "The Black Widow" and Perian Palebright

Beneath the sarcophagus lid, two blackened and twisted corpses clutch each other. Black ash fills the edge and floor, but upon further examination two cast off pieces of clothing are found: a racy negligee and a prominent codpiece. They detect as magical, moderate, and varying schools, the identifiable one as transformation.

When placed on either man or woman they turn the wearer into either Ellisandra or Perian. The key benefit is the +6 charisma bonus each confers, but the Reputation score of the mythical figures can be used as well. This reputation was not all good, however. Different lands will treat any PC attempting to pass as the historical figure with quite disparate welcomes.

Plenty of creative ways to use these and they're essentially just +6 ability bonus items.

 

[Celebrim]

Sometimes Gauntlets of Dexterity are just Gauntlets of Dexterity.

That's one of those self-affirming statements that doesn't mean anything.

If gauntlets of dexterity are nigh irreplaceable items of mystery found in the accursed tomb of some slumbering warrior-priest from an earlier age, then "Gauntlets of deterity are Gauntlets of Dexterity!"

And if they are not, if they can be bought in any medium sized town, then they are just Gauntlets of Dexterity.

Whether its more fun to go, "Cool, I've always wanted one of these!", or "Cool, now I can afford to buy Gauntlets of Dexterity!" is I suppose a matter of taste.

 

[MerricB]

I'm not saying magic is unreliable or unpredictable. I'm saying, whether spell or item, it requires a learning process.

However, in the play of D&D 3E, even with all these known elements, my players still manage to surprise me with unexpected interactions of effects.

It's much like Magic: the Gathering: that's a game where all the elements are known (although there were plans for the card set to be mysterious, that went bye-bye about 1 week after the game came out. Love the internet!) However, it's the interactions between the various elements that make things really interesting.

Another factor is that one player is extremely unlikely to know all the elements of the game just due to the sheer number that exist. So there is unknown information there as well. It's potentially known, but realistically not.

The moment something appears in a rulebook, it's no longer automatically mysterious. However, such can be injected by the DM. (One reason I like Weapons of Legacy - the PCs know how they work, and what the penalties will be, but I don't tell them the bonuses until the achieve the levels - I can do that because the items are my own creation).

Cheers!

 

[Vocenoctum]

I have found that being able to trade magic items easily has seen the interesting uses of unusual magic items disappear. Whereas before the players were inclined to keep all the magical items they found and try and put them to use in creative and interesting ways, now items fall into two categories: those to keep because they are immediately and/or obivously useful and those to sell because they are not.

I think MIC does sort of acknowledge this really, in that they want to make the item's value something where selling the item is actually a question rather than a foregone conclusion. Granted your point is still correct about non-obvious uses.

I will of course mention once again though that we ALWAYS sold items, and that it was standard procedure for every campaign I've ever been aware of locally.

 

[MerricB]

Ellisandra "The Black Widow" and Perian Palebright

Beneath the sarcophagus lid, two blackened and twisted corpses clutch each other. Black ash fills the edge and floor, but upon further examination two cast off pieces of clothing are found: a racy negligee and a prominent codpiece. They detect as magical, moderate, and varying schools, the identifiable one as transformation.

When placed on either man or woman they turn the wearer into either Ellisandra or Perian. The key benefit is the +6 charisma bonus each confers, but the Reputation score of the mythical figures can be used as well. This reputation was not all good, however. Different lands will treat any PC attempting to pass as the historical figure with quite disparate welcomes.

Plenty of creative ways to use these and they're essentially just +6 ability bonus items.

Err... you've left off the Disguise modifier. You've basically got a Hat of Disguise that adds +6 Cha there. As I said, the hat of disguise is inherently cool.

I wasn't discussing custom items, though, but existing items that have been used in cool ways.

Cheers!

 

[Vocenoctum]

That's one of those self-affirming statements that doesn't mean anything.

If gauntlets of dexterity are nigh irreplaceable items of mystery found in the accursed tomb of some slumbering warrior-priest from an earlier age, then "Gauntlets of deterity are Gauntlets of Dexterity!"

Hence the word "sometimes". The statement has to do with the fact that not every item is some special piece of history, sometimes a magic item is just a piece of gear.

And if they are not, if they can be bought in any medium sized town, then they are just Gauntlets of Dexterity.

Whether its more fun to go, "Cool, I've always wanted one of these!", or "Cool, now I can afford to buy Gauntlets of Dexterity!" is I suppose a matter of taste.

The discussion has already gone over the ground. Do you randomly throw items at the player and thus he'll never get Gauntlets of Dexterity, no matter HOW much the player would want some for his rogue? DO you tailor the magic items to what YOU think the pcs want?

3e gives the players a say in the matter, though the DM can always override it. You can keep what you find, or sell it for half price and get what you want. There is still a great advantage to finding the Gauntlets of Dexterity rather than buying them.


The "mystery" of Gauntlets of Dexterity is a very subjective thing, and I doubt it was ever as strong as folks suggest in these kinds of threads. If every magic item in your campaign has a backstory, the odds are still likely that the players would focus on one or two objects and the rest would become "Gauntlets of Dexterity" rather than "Beltars Gloves of Dextrous Maneuvering".

 

[BryonD]

Because irrational reverence for a book makes the game better? :\

Of course, IME, the only "mystical regard" that 1e had over 3e was a result of confusion because nearly every mechanical feature had its own arbitrary system.

The idea that magic isself was somehow more mysterious is just plain silly to me. If anything 3E has more sense of unknown going for it because of metamagics and templates that make each encounter possibly unique. I see less fireball, magic missle, fireball now than I did then. Not that I don't see it. I see it a lot. But there is no doubt more variety.

And even with all that, I'd hesitate to call it "more mystical" now. But the opposite? Not a chance.

 

[Thurbane]

I think a major point that a lot of people are missing or glossing over is the tone of a particular camapaign.

Surely there are some campaigns and settings that are more likely to have "magic shops" than others. There is no "default level" of magic in D&D, save for the WBL tables, which are guidelines anyway...but then that leads to the whole "are low magic camapigns viable" arguments, which is a whole other kettle of fish.