Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[howandwhy99]

Purely IMO but this sounds like a horribly unfun way to play what should be an entertaining game. It effectively makes a magic-oriented character impossible by taking away all knowledge of the player. They may know that they have a spell but they have no idea what it really does, it's simply the DM turning their magic into a plot device of whatever manner they think appropriate at the moment.

The magic is predictable to the DM, not random. The player receives a description, like boxed text, wherein they can learn more about what it does through experimentation and use. Like fireballs filling space and lightning bolts reflecting instead of grounding on the first target.

 

[MerricB]

The magic is predictable to the DM, not random. The player receives a description, like boxed text, wherein they can learn more about what it does through experimentation and use. Like fireballs filling space and lightning bolts reflecting instead of grounding on the first target.

So, somehow, despite generations of wizards casting fireball, no-one noted in the spell description that "Oh, by the way, this spell expands to fill its volume"?

I can see your world now - no caster above level 4. At level 5, they learn fireball and cast it... and die.

Not to mention the amount of work that is placed on the DM's shoulders. The players know nothing, the DM must remember everything... or spend a lot of time looking it up.

Madness.

 

[molonel]

The magic is predictable to the DM, not random. The player receives a description, like boxed text, wherein they can learn more about what it does through experimentation and use. Like fireballs filling space and lightning bolts reflecting instead of grounding on the first target.

To me, as a DM/GM, that is going to grind my game to a halt as I have to explain how EVERYTHING works.

There just comes a point where I don't CARE if fireballs can swallow players unintentionally, or lighting bolts reflect. I already look for ways to shorten combat, and the thought of explaining each and every spell effect because - hey, it's MAGIC! it's UNPREDICTABLE! - makes me want to stab out my eyes with a #2 pencil.

What makes my game magical is the characters, and the roleplaying, and the story. The players can read all of my books all day long, but they have no idea what they are going to encounter in my stories any more than they would know what I'm going to build by looking at a stack of lumber, nails and tools.

 

[howandwhy99]

You know, I'd venture to say with a fair amount of confidence that you were in the minority by treating the DMG as a sacred text which the players's filthy hands should never touch.

You can ASK your players not to look at it, but you were lucky back in 1st Edition if your players didn't read through the modules you were running.

Perhaps this is why modification was the norm?

Character optimization and magic have BOTH been a part of the game for as long as its been out there. One need only flip through a copy of the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana or the 1st Edition Oriental Adventures to understand that.

Two supplements akin to later ones printed for Palladium? I'll accept that. My point is: magic is no longer magical. It's being pointed out as never having been magical. It is not unusual to here of players who regarded the original AD&D DMG with a bit of mystical regard.

Actually, this most certainly IS its largest success ever. Gary Gygax and TSR never, EVER faced competition from multiple RPG producers and the vast market of games like World of Warcraft which sold - I believe - a million copies during its first week of release.

Inflation dollar-wise? no. But yes, D&D only competed against the mimics and other games that came in its' wake.

See, this is why I really have a hard time taking folks like yourself seriously in this discussion. The pretensiousness of a sentence like, "Now I understand why magic was never magical for you" beggars my ability to mock it.

Magic and mystery don't come out of putting a padlock on the DMG, and if you have to shake your finger at your players for reading it instead of inventing your own custom magic items that fit your individual players, then don't accuse me of lacking imagination, sir, because you are exhibit A.

Magic is only one element of the story, and frankly, I'm run low-magic and no-magic games that were every bit as interesting as a high-magic FR monty haul campaign, if not more so.

I agree published materials don't have padlocks. So I make my own materials. How is this unimaginative? Magic can be mysterious in high or low magic worlds. What isn't mysterious is omniscient, metagaming players assuming all magical knowledge (and items) are known.

I'm free to change not allow magic shops in my game, sure. The difficulty is, no I have a community of players who believe this is how the game should be played. It even says so in the DMG. Splatbooks are aggravating the problem.

 

[howandwhy99]

You don't think that in Introduction to Wizard Training 101 they have a section of the textbook that lists common magical items and their relative rarity (aka value)?

Why is it so difficult to believe that in D&D world people have heard of things they haven't seen. I have never seen a LOT of animals that exist currently and in the past on this planet but I know *OF* them and could possibly ID one if it came running through my basement. At least until the T-rex did, then i'd poo myself. Thats not the same thing as saying I can go to Petland and buy a three-toed sloth or that I could just head down to South America and find one in the wild.

What your saying is what I'm regarding as a Modernist mindset. Again, if fantasy is exploration, and the awe and mystique of discovery (through experimentation for magic items) is a learning process, assuming PCs know all DMG-listed magical secrets removes their magic.

A vast body of reliable knowledge about the world is a decidedly Modern development. Medievals horded knowledge. Knowledge was power and you shared it at your detriment. Combative magic even more so. I'm not saying everyone play a Medieval game, I just want the option accepted by the rules.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It is not unusual to here of players who regarded the original AD&D DMG with a bit of mystical regard.

Because irrational reverence for a book makes the game better? :\

 

[Slife]

Does sarcasm need to be pointed out in 18-point bold type now?

In this thread? Yes.


Anyway, according to standard DnD cosmology, the planes are infinite. Therefore, if there is any chance whatsoever of anything being created, it will exist, and if there's any chance it can be sold, it will be.

 

[howandwhy99]

So, somehow, despite generations of wizards casting fireball, no-one noted in the spell description that "Oh, by the way, this spell expands to fill its volume"?

I can see your world now - no caster above level 4. At level 5, they learn fireball and cast it... and die.

Not to mention the amount of work that is placed on the DM's shoulders. The players know nothing, the DM must remember everything... or spend a lot of time looking it up.

Madness.

Madness with a 1000 page ruleset where all aspects are considered simply Core. The incredible over complication of DMing is well known for 3E. And it's not half of what I'm suggesting.

So, yeah. Magic shops are not the first thing to remarket the "spirit of D&D".

 

[howandwhy99]

To me, as a DM/GM, that is going to grind my game to a halt as I have to explain how EVERYTHING works.

Every spell effect is narrated by the DM, no?

There just comes a point where I don't CARE if fireballs can swallow players unintentionally, or lighting bolts reflect. I already look for ways to shorten combat, and the thought of explaining each and every spell effect because - hey, it's MAGIC! it's UNPREDICTABLE! - makes me want to stab out my eyes with a #2 pencil.

What makes my game magical is the characters, and the roleplaying, and the story. The players can read all of my books all day long, but they have no idea what they are going to encounter in my stories any more than they would know what I'm going to build by looking at a stack of lumber, nails and tools.

These are all part of it. Why not have magic be magical too? I mean, it's right there. It's what makes fantasy different than, say, playing normal people in 2007. Why limit the potential for fun?

I'm thinking some of this may be related to my previous post on the world being bizarro. Players make the story, DMs set up the mystery of the world and rules - consistent and predictable behind-the-scenes, but still unknown.

 

[Celebrim]

Making note of course that not every town has a sizeable store of magic items. GP limits still apply.

Which I noted in the very next sentence.

Actually, the supposition I make is that a 100,000 gp item, whether a magical staff or a bejeweled crown fit for a king, is available somewhere for a price.

Actually, I would assume neither is to be found. I would assume that either could be commissioned for a price, but noone makes an item like a 100,000 gp crown and then just hopes to find a buyer for it at some point. Find someone that can do the work and then wait a few months.

The question then becomes, "Are people that can make high quality jewelry more or less common than those that can make top end magical items?" And the answer to that question is I think fairly obvious based on even the most modern interpretations of the abundence of high level spellcasters. If you want to change that, you are free to do so but I'll have a bit more respect for your ability to craft a setting if in changing that the setting changes with it. For example, someone mentioned a 'Dreamlands' campaign. In that case it fits. In most cases, I don't see it fitting.

The fact that it's magical doesn't make it uber-special, so much as the fact it's a 100,000gp item.

A crown is a few pounds of gold and say 100 relatively mundane gems and pearls, which any decent jeweler could make given the materials and time. Besides being valuable, it's uber-special only because of who has worn it. Putting one on doesn't make you a king and doesn't even start you on that path unless it is something more than a crown. A magical item worth 100,000 gp on the other hand is a legend, a mighty peice of magic of renown, the stuff of heroes, and grasping it in your hand imparts some of that to you and if it is any other way in your campaign I feel that you are cheating yourself.