Do Multiclassed Epic Characters Get The Shaft?

[Ridley's Cohort]

Face it, Epic feats are more powerful (hence, Epic). Allowing one character to take more of them (the single-classed character) isn't at all fair (to the multi-classed character).

You may believe that, but you haven't made your case at all.

I think it is entirely appropriate that a Fighter20 or Rogue20 has options that a Fighter10/Rogue10 does not.

As things stand, there is an enormous incentive for a Fighter19 to pick up one level of Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, etc. as his 20th level. The one feat delayed doesn't mean much compared to the skills and other abilities you could gain otherwise, especially because he has had so many feats to play with already.

Are you seriously suggesting that an epic level character is only going to pick up epic feats later in his career?

I, for one, think that multiclassed characters are very often more powerful than single-classed ones. I think it is perfectly fair if there is a payout for focus. YMMV.

 

[mikebr99]

Face it, Epic feats are more powerful (hence, Epic). Allowing one character to take more of them (the single-classed character) isn't at all fair (to the multi-classed character).

And this is the REAL penalty for multiclassing!

MULTICLASS CHARACTERS
A character may add new classes as he progresses in levels. The class abilities from a character’s different classes add together to determine the multiclass character’s total abilities. Multiclassing improves a character’s versatility at the expense of focus.

In order to be truely epic in something... you have to focus in it. You want to be an EPIC fighter? Stay in the core Fighter class, or in one of the PrC's based on the fighter class.

I see the epic classes as new Prestige classes... ie. the Epic Fighter has the prereq. of needing 20 levels of the regular class to enter. The epic Loremaster needs 10 levels of the regular loremaster to enter.

A 10th level fighter/15th level Wizard may not be the best fighter in the party, and he may also not be the best spellcaster in the party... but I'll wager that he can keep up with those single classed (25th level) characters in ANY well run campaign.

 

[Catalyst]

First of all, I am against allowing an Epic Character to multiclass into a new class and take Epic Feats as Bonus Feats.

A 20th Ftr / 20th Bbn has so many feats, a certain number of which are possibly Epic.

A 20th Bbn / 20th Ftr has the same number of feats, but 1 more Epic feat than the character above.

All that aside, I think multiclass characters can be viable at Epic levels assuming they are created intelligently. Their regular feat every 3rd level can still be Epic and they are still gaining lots of bonuses each level (more and better spells, more SA, more FA, more Rages, more ... well you get the point.)

And yet, despite having one less Epic feat by level 40, the 20th Ftr / 20th Bbn was in much better shape upon hitting epic levels because his massive number of non-epic feats qualified him for almost anything he'd want. The 20th Bbn / 20th Ftr would have a severely shortened list of feats whose prerequisites could be met until he'd been epic for a while. If he specifically took regular feats to qualify for epic feats, his 8 non-epic choices (7 if non-human) would help a little--but there is very little a Ftr20 / Bbn1 couldn't take right away.

I agree that multiclass characters could still be effective even if you denied them epic feats for bonus feats, but since most characters could have taken a Prestige Class and gained access to bonus epic feats that way, it seems to me you would actually be punishing the character--not for multiclassing, but for staying within the core classes. A Wiz10 / Rog10 would have to make do with the "every 3 levels and that's it" progression for at least 10 more levels, but a Rog5 / Wiz5 / Arcane Trickster10 could continue the Prestige Class advancement and have immediate access to them. To me, both characters should be of equal power as they are both level 20. How they add up to it is irrelevant. (OK, it is relevant to any good DM, but should not be within the rules, which happen to state a Ftr20 is the same CR as a Ftr1/Bbn4/Rgr3/Rog8/Sor4).

 

[Catalyst]

I think it is entirely appropriate that a Fighter20 or Rogue20 has options that a Fighter10/Rogue10 does not.

I, for one, think that multiclassed characters are very often more powerful than single-classed ones. I think it is perfectly fair if there is a payout for focus. YMMV.

But my point is, isn't there already a checks and balances system for this in the prereqs, aside from any class-level restrictions? If the Rogue multiclasses, chances are he'll have a harder time building the 30 ranks in Tumble necessary for Epic Dodge. Spellcasters need every rank in Spellcraft they can get for virtually every epic magic-oriented feat in the book, ranks they will pay dearly for if they dabble in non-casting classes. Why are these limitations there, if not to make characters work in a specific character direction already? A Ftr10/Rog10 will likely not have a 25 CON for many combat-related feats (or a 25 STR for that matter).

My bottom line: The feats are damn hard to get already, with epic-level attributes, skill ranks, and long lists of requisite feats required for most of them. All the Epic monsters require incredible to-hit rolls to beat their AC and incredible caster-level checks to beat their SR. The book demands that players focus, and multiclassed characters are handicapped already IMHO. Further forbidding them from feats, based on class levels, is only going to worsen it.

I realize most people are fairly set in their decisions here one way or another, but the rules as printed say it's OK to take epic feats for bonus feats. I'm just arguing for why I agree with them.

 

[Caliber]

Ever since 3e came out there have been two camps of thought on multiclass characters.

Camp 1 says multiclass characters are too powerful. They attain all kinds of weird and wacky abilities. "Only munchkins multiclass!" they cry.

Camp 2 says multiclass characters are too weak. They dilute their abilities too much and can't do anything well enough to matter. "Multiclass characters get enough limits already. We need more power dang-nab-it!"

Sitting lonely in the corner are the few people like me who feel that single class vs. multiclass is more or less balanced.

Obviously a lot of this problem is individual DMs fault. Certain playing styles favor one side, other playing styles favor the other.

The fact is, this discussion is really another manifestation of this old debate. I think that if you are taking non-Epic levels in a class (and that you are of Epic character level yourself) that any Bonus Feats must be taken from that class's non-Epic Bonus Feat list.

If a class just got a Bonus Feat, which could be anything, I would possibly let them take an Epic Feat. But if they have a non-Epic list for the Bonus Feat, they are stuck with it. As always, your mileage may vary, let the buyer beware, no returns on Fridays, all sales final.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Face it, Epic feats are more powerful (hence, Epic). Allowing one character to take more of them (the single-classed character) isn't at all fair (to the multi-classed character).

I wanted to grab this quote because I thought it was funny that I took issue with the same paragraph Ridley did but for different reasons. Me I don't think epic feats are more powerful. They may be called epic but they shoudn't be. They should be the sucker, you thought you were buying epic feats. There are a few exceptions but the vast majority of them seem to be the same thing as the ordinary feats just taken 1 or two steps further. Epic two weapon fighting another attack at -10 now. Ok how is the better than imporved two weapon fighting. To me it's the same feat one more attack for another -5 penalty. I think 80+% of these feats should of been introduced as standard feats, there is nothing epic about them other than there name.

Now I'm sure I'm missing some great epic like feats(the one that lowers metamgic levels by one is brutal for example and should be epic), I got the book at the same time I bought spycraft, I week later I got powers of the jedi, and everquest rpg. So I haven't studdied all the feats yet. But overall I'm seriously unimpressed with the epicness of the feats I've seen.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

And this is the REAL penalty for multiclassing!

In order to be truely epic in something... you have to focus in it. You want to be an EPIC fighter? Stay in the core Fighter class, or in one of the PrC's based on the fighter class.

That's true, but this should be done through feat chains, not barring access to feats.

Even at lower levels, one has the choice of following a feat chain (such as Dodge, Mobility etc), versus picking up individual powers (Lit Reflexes, Iron Will).

Think about it at low levels. At low levels, everyone at the same levels has access to the same feats. Whether multiclassing or not. The typical barriers to taking the powerful feats are BAB requirements, skill ranks, or maybe another feature. Instead of getting feats, other characters pick up class abilities, but everyone has access to the same "feat pool" at a given level.

At high levels, if we use the rules as written, then this is still true. Due to recent confusion, many people are insisting multiclassers do not get the same access to Epic feats as single classed characters when using bonus feats.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Ever since 3e came out there have been two camps of thought on multiclass characters.

Camp 1 says multiclass characters are too powerful. They attain all kinds of weird and wacky abilities. "Only munchkins multiclass!" they cry.

Camp 2 says multiclass characters are too weak. They dilute their abilities too much and can't do anything well enough to matter. "Multiclass characters get enough limits already. We need more power dang-nab-it!"

Sitting lonely in the corner are the few people like me who feel that single class vs. multiclass is more or less balanced.

Obviously a lot of this problem is individual DMs fault. Certain playing styles favor one side, other playing styles favor the other.

The fact is, this discussion is really another manifestation of this old debate. I think that if you are taking non-Epic levels in a class (and that you are of Epic character level yourself) that any Bonus Feats must be taken from that class's non-Epic Bonus Feat list.

If a class just got a Bonus Feat, which could be anything, I would possibly let them take an Epic Feat. But if they have a non-Epic list for the Bonus Feat, they are stuck with it. As always, your mileage may vary, let the buyer beware, no returns on Fridays, all sales final.

depends on how you multiclass. personally I think most spellcasters who multi are usually crippling themselves.(unless into a prestige class that gives spell advancment at almost every level) But fighter/skill class type make great multis though on average don't seem overpowered. For example I think fighter/bards make great characters. You get songs, which frequently end up as countersongs, and whole party minor buffs, you can fight well, have a good selecion of skills, some decent spells(and can bust out wand cures now) and have solid saves all around. overall a nice package, sure a single class whatever is better in their specialty but not by the huge amounts you see in the single v multi pure spellcasting classes.

 

[Catalyst]

Caliber, I think you made a lot of strong points in your last post, and I agree with you. As for my statement about happily agreeing with what's "official" in the book, I'll be watching the following thread very closely and hoping Andy actually gives a straightforward answer for once:

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm2.showMessage?topicID=160.topic

 

[Voadam]

The fact that the ftr20/bar20 has 1 more non-epic and one less epic feat than a bar20/ftr20 is no big deal. I think it is ridiculous to make an issue of it. I see epic as a feat with a prereq of ECL 21 in addition to the others.

Doesn't the barbarian 20 fighter 20 have 11 more epic feats than the fighter 20 barbarian 20? The BF can spend their 11 fighter feats on epic ones while the FB spent their 11 fighter feats on non-epic ones. They both get their 1/3 character levels which can go to epic but spending bonus feats on epic ones seems to make a difference.