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D&D 5E Do NPCs in your game have PHB classes?

How common is it for NPCs in your world to be built using the classes in the Player’s Handbook?

  • All NPCs (or all NPCs with combat or spellcasting capabilities) have class levels.

    Votes: 4 2.3%
  • Class levels are common for NPCs, but not universal.

    Votes: 54 31.0%
  • NPCs with class levels are rare.

    Votes: 87 50.0%
  • Only player characters have class levels.

    Votes: 29 16.7%

Tony Vargas

Legend
Tony has at various times compared this to Asgardian flesh and Highlander: the Quickening.
I think I'll call your system "The Quickening" or "The Life Force Model" and Saelorn's the "Asgardian Hypothesis." (When you stab an Asgardian, it's like stabbing a bank vault, not like instant regeneration or whatever excessive life force for your size looks likes.)

I don't have to explain how my (N)PCs' cellular biology is changing as they accumulate more life force, because my NPCs don't have mitochondria or a cellular biology. They are made out of "flesh" and "bone" and "blood", which are quasi-elemental substances and nothing to do with elements or atoms in the sense 21st century humans use the words.

In short, I run fantasy biology and fantasy physics in my fantasy world.
Thanks for sharing that, again, it's a fun one!
 

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See, the trick is, that only really works if everyone survives. Because, so long as you have enough HP, it's impossible for you to die.

Heck, with enough HP, not only do I walk away from the fall, I get up, get in another airplane, jump out and walk away a second time. Even in 5e this is possible since it would take enough time for a short rest to get back up in the air, meaning I could spend all my HD and have enough HP to survive two 10000 foot falls in the same day.

I'm not aware of any real world case of this being true.

Sure. All I'm saying is that the mechanical ability to survive a really high fall and remain functional doesn't have to represent in-world superhuman physical toughness in the sense that the character's bones/muscles/skin are different from standard human, since it's (barely) possible for standard humans to survive stuff like that. So it can still be modeled with high HP representing extreme ability to mitigate damage rather than steel skin or whatever.

What bothers me about the exhaustion/luck/skill HP thing is that spider/viper bites etc. still inject poison - which implies at least some physical contact. So I think any wound which deals damage has to make some kind of actual contact or injury (however minor), but higher HP characters mitigate it (not avoid it - that's AC).

I don't have any problem with really high level characters actually being superhumanly tough in-world, though.
 

So, what exact in game justifications are there for two creatures of roughly the same size being wildly different in toughness? Why, exactly, does a hill giant have three times as many Hit Dice as an ogre and twice that of a troll? Why should a troll, which is considerably smaller than an ogre, have more Hit Dice than an ogre?
The troll is magic, so it gets a free pass. As for the difference between an ogre and a hill giant, which are just about the least magical monsters in the book, you might look at the difference between a human and a chimpanzee as for an example of how similar-looking creatures can have vastly different physical capabilities.

Preferably, since this thread is supposed to be about PCs and NPCs, you could just look at the difference between Glass Joe and Mike Tyson, or their real-world equivalents.

So you're limiting the relevance of your interpretation, to adventurers who don't use weapons and monsters that don't have claws?
No, I'm following the basic assumption of D&D that anyone we care about modeling is either wearing armor or magic or both. A sword strike against someone wearing armor is roughly akin to an unarmed strike against someone who isn't wearing armor.

It's not the "Asgardian Hypothesis" as much as it is the "Iron Mike" hypothesis.

Edit: Not that there's anything wrong with your Asgardian Hypothesis, as it is still internally consistent, even if it's far removed from most fantasy depictions of powerful warriors. Of course, if you look at a high-level spellcaster in AD&D or the 3E-era, then that also gives you an image that is rather unique among fantasy spellcasters, so such a warrior would be in good company.
 
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Valetudo

Adventurer
Man i totally feel like you guys have totally derailed this thread. Your all arguing about something that is just differing perspectives so you end up going in circles. I liked this thread better when it was about how we made our npcs.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
No, I'm following the basic assumption of D&D that anyone we care about modeling is either wearing armor or magic or both. A sword strike against someone wearing armor is roughly akin to an unarmed strike against someone who isn't wearing armor.
It's not remotely - armor can be penetrated, no armor gives complete coverage, etc. Neither is that an assumption, particularly of 5e D&D, in which magic items are not assumed, at all. And if you /do/ go there, you're prettymuch taking any sort of actual wound off the table, which, I did not think was what you were going for, at all.

Not that there's anything wrong with your Asgardian Hypothesis, as it is still internally consistent, even if it's far removed from most fantasy depictions of powerful warriors.
It falls down a bit in the sense that it's more resistance to damage rather than absorbing more damage, so still runs into the non-proportional paradox, and leaves you with identical-looking wounds of radically different hp values.

Hemlock's Quickenning and 'Life Force Models' in general, are more internally consistent, but go all the way and make hps essentially supernatural (though, like magic, perfectly natural in his setting). ;)
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
But this is like complaining that sometimes a roll of 10 hits and sometimes it doesn't! To know whether or not a roll of 10 hits, you have to look up the to hit bonus and comare it to the AC.

To know whether 8 hp of damage is fatal or not, you need to look at the hit points remaining.

The number of hp of damage dealt, on its own, tells you nothing about what is happening in the fiction. That's why D&D is not simulationist. (Contrast, say RQ or RM, where 8 hp of damage does have a constant in-fiction meaning.)

No, it has absolutely nothing to do with the number of hit points taken. One character is hit and dies and the other is hit and does not die. You can simply match mechanics to description by describing one hit as being fatal and the other as not.

What is completely whackadoo crazy is when one character gets hit and dies while the other character gets hit but has no sign of injury which is where mechanics and description part ways.
 

Hit points, at least as described by Gygax, are neither physical nor non-physical. They're not a measure of any ingame quantity, because - as Gygax makes clear - they're not part of a process simulation (the "not proportional" comment is enough to show that; the "hit location is not germane" reinforces the point).
As previously mentioned, some pages back, Gygax's game does not meet the strictest definition of an RPG, by the standards of the modern era. I try to not judge his statements too harshly, since those were primitive days, and he was making up everything as he went along. As I understand it, he was more or less removed from the project by the time 2E came around, when designers actually started caring about role-playing as its own virtue.

And what about all the other participants in the fight? Were they frozen in time? And then, when they take their turns, what about my PC who acted before them?
No, they are also performing their actions over the course of the six-second period between their last turn and their next turn.

And to answer your next question, about how we know whether someone would be affected by this spell, when you cast it into an area that they were currently in the process of moving out of - that's where initiative comes into play. The reality is that they are somewhere along their course of motion, at the point when you cast that spell, and if your turn came along first then they were not far enough along their course in order to clear the effect by the time your spell goes off.

It's an approximation of reality. It's a simulation. It's a simplification. Just as the Navier-Stokes equation simplifies down to Bernoulli under certain assumptions, and this is sufficient to build a functional aircraft; so can a fluid combat scenario be described using a manageable collection of game mechanics, with a meaningful outcome derived. The more complicated you want to make the equations, then the more accurate your final answer will be, and the more difficult it will be to reach.

This can't be literally true - after all, choosing to pick up a die is not making a decision as one's PC would. So the question is, how is the metaphor to be cashed out?
Picking up the die is not a decision. You're not making a choice about what happens to your character, or about anything else within the game world, and thus the possibility of meta-gaming is never called into question.

If my PC really wants something, and is putting all her effort and all her hope into it, and at the table I spend all my fate points and cash in all my inspiration chips, to me that looks like I'm making decisions as my character would and exercising my character's agency.
You can't choose to be inspired, though. You can be inspired, surely enough, and a reasonable game system may well include mechanics to that effect, but it's not a choice, any more than you can choose to be hungry or afraid.

An argument could be made for the player being in a better position to know how their character should feel about stuff than the GM does - while you are the character (or "channeling the character", as some call it), then you should know when you are actually inspired. The temptation to meta-game would be present, and it would require the player to take off their PC hat and put on a GM hat for a second, but as long as the player is being honest, then it could potentially work out. (Fate points are a bad example of this, for other reasons which are only tangential to the topic at hand.)

If players don't have luck-type mechanics (be they hp, fate points, re-rolls, whatever) then the metaphysics of the fiction are the same as the physics of dice - cold, uncaring randomisation.
So you have to ask yourself, do you want to pretend to be a real elf, in a world where dragons and magic are actually real? Or do you want to pretend to be a character in a story, where dragons and magic are plot contrivances? Because you can't be both at the same time.

The premise of role-playing is that you're pretending to actually be an elf, and you can't do that while you're simultaneously choosing to invoke fate or luck or whatever. That's not a choice that the character is in any position to make; nor, in the case of passive mechanics, is it a fact that the character can know.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What is completely whackadoo crazy is when one character gets hit and dies while the other character gets hit but has no sign of injury which is where mechanics and description part ways.

Not if you understand that a "hit" doesn't have to actually...........hit. There is no need for a sword swing to even connect with the enemy to damage it. You are focusing too much on the word damage. Damage in D&D does not mean what it means in the real world. Damage in D&D only means hit point loss. Nothing else.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Not if you understand that a "hit" doesn't have to actually...........hit. There is no need for a sword swing to even connect with the enemy to damage it. You are focusing too much on the word damage. Damage in D&D does not mean what it means in the real world. Damage in D&D only means hit point loss. Nothing else.

Ok, so what if the "hit" was from a "snake" which caused you to become "poisoned".

Did the snake actually bite you and should the cleric be allowed to treat you since you have no appearance of being "damaged"?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Ok, so what if the "hit" was from a "snake" which caused you to become "poisoned".

Did the snake actually bite you and should the cleric be allowed to treat you since you have no appearance of being "damaged"?

Then it has to at least puncture the skin, but most of the damage can still be non-physical. Physicality is a part of hit points, but it isn't all of it like Saelorn is trying to make it out to be. No edition has said what he is suggesting and every last one of them contradicts him.
 

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