Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[Bedrockgames]

But, like the old 4e edition wars, there's a difference between someone stating, "I really don't like the newest Ghostbusters" and someone who jumps into every single conversation screaming from the top of their lungs how the newest Ghostbusters has ruined their childhood, destroyed humanity and kicked puppies.

I just want to say, I think the 4E debates are a whole other category of thing. Those were not at all about issues pertaining to race and so forth. That was an edition war that got very heated. I don't really care anymore, but I was not a fan of 4E and said so, and I don't think that puts me in the same category as online trolls trying to get Rose Tico out of star wars or something. I am not saying there wasn't bad behavior in those arguments, but both camps were pretty negative toward each other. I can see the bad behavior that arose on my side, I hope you can also see the bad behavior that arose on your's.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If your argument is that, in fact, it is impossible to create interesting fantasy fiction without entertaining racially-laden tropes, then come out and say it! If that's not your argument, then why keep raising this red herring?
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This isn't my argument Pemerton.

 

[pemerton]

This isn't my argument Pemerton.

So then why keep brining up the "pablum" red herring?

 

[Bedrockgames]

You continued repetation of this point, while not actually engaging with the close reading that @Doug McCrae in particular has put forward, comes across as a debating tactic rather than sincere engagement with others' posts.

Pemerton, I am just not finding his quotes compelling, and I think they are an example of the kind of fine toothed comb approach I've been critical of. He is doing the academic thing I am complaining out, which is taking selective quotes from various sources (which can easily be cherry picked, and are not necessarily evidence of anything except another person's opinion or conclusion) and pairing that with passages from D&D. Frankly his posts look like the kind of stuff I see conspiracy theorists say. I don't find this approach very persuasive.

EDIT: Also, just a note I think the connections between the passages he quotes and the text from D&D is often tenuous. In the one about savages, the D&D text description could easily be applied to any conquering tribal group in history as described from the point of view of the people being invaded. It is just super common stuff you see if you read a lot of history where settled groups who perceive themselves as civilized describe the people around them who pose a threat as non-civilized. I think having barbarian and uncivilized tropes is fine.

 

[Bedrockgames]

So then why keep brining up the "pablum" red herring?

I am not going to answer a question framed this way.

Edit: And you know perfectly well I am not saying that making good media requires the use of racist tropes. Please don't put words in my mouth. My argument about Pablum is valid in my mind. But that isn't what it is. I think you are being extremely disingenuous Pemerton. And I think you are enjoying this process far too much. Like I said earlier, I've reached a point in the conversation where I do feel I am ill-equipped to debate you because I can sense the chess game going on on your side (whereas on mine I am just trying to make my viewpoint clear). That doesn't mean I am wrong. And I am not going to be manuevered into saying something distasteful that I don't believe, simply because you are good at rhetoric.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Upthred you complained about "fine tooth combs", but here you seem to be advocating for them.
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Because the fine toothed comb is a hyper critical one that labels things X and doesn't remove that label. I am arguing for nuance. Saying things are greatly dependent on their context. And understanding nuance of a movie's message isn't nearly as intense or involved as combing through sociology texts, examining the history of a trope, etc to make an argument about it.

 

[Aldarc]

Does WoW have yet another orc origin?

It has been retconned over the years. Their backstory changed between Warcraft 1 to Warcraft 2 to Warcraft 3, which then becomes the primary background for WoW. However, WoW and its past, present, and future lore is also a mess. Blizzard has attempted to repackage the lore several times, most notably with the World of Warcraft: Chronicle lore book series. They only really received a biogensis origin as of Chronicle, though it was implied in WoW: Warlords of Draenor.

Officially, orcs are the quasi-evolutionary descendants of Grond, a gigantic earth elemental created by the Titans* to essentially be a weed-killer on the planet of Draenor. The giant "offspring" of Grond gradually "degenerated" into other lesser giants and eventually orcs. So Grond -> Colossals -> Magnaron -> Gronn -> Ogron -> Ogre -> Orc. Orcish skin tones were orginally earthen shades of brown and black. Their skin tones only became green following their exposure to demonic fel magic. Though they later rejected demonic warlock practices in favor of their historical shamanistic practices, their skin tones remained green.

Conceptually, orc cutlure in WoW seems rooted in hodge-podge of Subsaharan Africa, Vikings, and the Huns or Mongols. They began Warcraft 1 & 2 by trying to conquer the Eastern Continents for Lebensraum (their homeworld of Draenor was dying). The Eastern Continents were composed primarily of quasi-medieval European human, dwarf, gnomish, and elvish kingdoms,* who formed the Noble Alliance to oppose them. (Yes, they were all white. Let me repeat myself here: human cultures in Warcraft are entirely white, and they are all descended from Norse-themed half-giants.) The Eastern Continent also included the "savage" Trolls, who kinda have an Aztec thing going on and who allied with the Orcish Horde. Then in Warcraft 3 the orcs discarded their demonic overlords, and the orcs were led by their Green Moses across the sea, where they finally conquered their own region that is analogous to Subsaharan Africa. And they also allied with Caribbean/Mesoamerican jungle trolls, and Plains Indian minotaurs. The orcs, however, do get the opportunity to be heroes and have complex depictions, but Blizzard predominately likes to use them as agitators of conflict with the peace-loving Alliance. So yeah... there is definitely some casual racism at play in Warcraft.

* Titans are basically "space gods" born from the spirits of planets who are dedicated to fostering life and bringing order to the cosmos. Titans were also indirectly responsible for creating the seed species on the world of Azeroth that would later become humans, dwarves, and gnomes. Elves, however, are actually magically-mutated descendants of trolls, who themselves were born from the magical energies of the planet.

And that was my TED talk.

And of course, almost every society considers fair skin more attractive (at least in women). Skin-whitening creams are popular all over the world, including in areas that were never colonized by European nations.

This was not always the case, but it increasingly became so as Euro-America reduced their old fashioned colonialism in favor of exporting their media. Anthropologists have observed how non-white cultures have changed their own attitudes regarding skin tones in conjunction with new Euro-American media.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Frankly his posts look like the kind of stuff I see conspiracy theorists say. I don't find this approach very persuasive.

It's surely not a conspiracy theory to say that colonialist narratives and other racist ideas informed the authors of Appendix N works, and other 20th century media such as Westerns, and that those ideas made their way into 5e D&D both directly (ie from those media) and by way of earlier editions.

Also the thread title merely asks whether there are parallels with colonialist propaganda, which is a lesser claim. Frex there is a parallel between Warhammer's skaven and Nazi ideology but it's almost certainly merely an unfortunate coincidence.

 

[Sadras]

/snip

“The yuan-ti were once humans who thrived in the earliest days of civilization and worshiped serpents as totem animals… The yuan-ti religion grew more fanatical in its devotion. Cults bound themselves to the worship of the serpent gods and imitated their ways, indulging in cannibalism and humanoid sacrifice.”​

“Lizard folk are omnivorous, but they have a taste for humanoid flesh. Prisoners are often taken back to their camps to become the centerpieces of great feasts and rites involving dancing, storytelling, and ritual combat. Victims are either cooked and eaten by the tribe, or are sacrificed to Semuanya, the lizardfolk god.”​

“When an orc slays an elf in Gruumsh's name and offers the corpse of its foe as a sacrifice to the god of slaughter, an aspect of the god might appear.”​

"Bloodthirsty marauders and cannibals, orcs venerate Gruumsh and thereby delight in slaughter and destruction." - 4e D&D Monster Manual​

“They range rather than inhabite”, “wicked idlenesse”, they do not build but use the creations of others, technologically backward:

“They [orcs] seldom settle permanently, instead converting ruins, cavern complexes, and defeated foes' villages into fortified camps and strongholds.”​

“Orcs don’t build settlements of their own, instead improving existing shelters with crude fortifications. They prefer to settle in natural caves or structures abandoned by other, more skillful races. Orcs can manage simple ironwork and stonework, but they are lazy and grasping, preferring to take by force the tools, weapons, and goods other folk make.” - 4e D&D Monster Manual​

“Goblins are lazy and undisciplined”​

“They [bullywugs] wear crude armor and wield simple weapons”​

“They [hobgoblins] protect their strongholds with... crude catapults”​

“Lizardfolk are primitive reptilian humanoids”​

At this rate we will be left with a few choice entries like the Solar, the Water Elemental and an Elk but once @Doug McCrae starts quoting from religious/wiccan and vegan texts we might find our Monster Manual reduced to non-hierarchical, equal pay, non-binary Modrons. In fact, the book's name will have to be altered to just Manual because somewhere someone called somebody a Monster so that's no good.

What was TSR/WotC thinking using such an inflammatory word?!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Also the thread title merely asks whether there are parallels with colonialist propaganda, which is a lesser claim.

This.