Level Up (A5E) Do Player Characters Have Average Population Stat Distributions?

[Lanefan]

This. Character creation rules are for characters. NPCs do not, in any way, shape or form, need to conform to character creation rules or be "legal characters".

Absolutely disagree.

Unless all the PCs are aliens dropped into the game world from somewhere else, they have to be created on the same chassis as NPCs - and NPCs must be created on the same chassis as PCs - or else the setting (or even the whole game) is garbage.

It's non-negotiable.

 

[Phoebasss]

Absolutely disagree.

Unless all the PCs are aliens dropped into the game world from somewhere else, they have to be created on the same chassis as NPCs - and NPCs must be created on the same chassis as PCs - or else the setting (or even the whole game) is garbage.

It's non-negotiable.

What does this mean? I can't ever make a mercenary NPC with 7 Int or the setting is trash? PCs need to exactly conform to average population statistical math or the game is garbage? Designing NPCs with player character creation is a whole lot of effort for no upside. And I would say it even hurts the game to impose this restriction on yourself.

For reference I tend to use point-buy in my games.

 

[Lanefan]

One of the few things I actually liked about 4e was that it got rid of needing to think about NPCs and PCs as needing to use the same rules, and harkened a bit back to 1e and 2e about only doing as much as was needed for NPCs.

As long as what you do end up doing for NPCs is the same as you'd do for PCs only not as detailed, you're fine.

The key is to be able to assume at all times that this NPC, if fully fleshed out, would use the same rules and systems as a PC.

The opposite of that was my least favorite thing about 3.5/PF - why does a great Blacksmith necessarily get better at combat in terms of BAB and hp (as they do if you use the expert class)!?!

As far as ability scores in particular, the 1e DMGs words on it show there's a long history of the PCs and NPCs being different:

Only in terms of inherent bonus i.e. 4d6k3 vs 3d6, to give PCs that extra push off the cliff. Basic didn't have this; it was 3d6 in order.

I disagree with Gygax when he averages NPC stats; where realitically they'd be 3d6 (or some other 3-18 bell curve) in order.

 

[Lanefan]

I've always been in the mindset that PCs are usually freaks of nature. Some PCs might be normal but that is their quirkiness averaging within itself. PCs are the "professional sports players" of the fantasy world.

In now way should PC statistics be used to extrapolate NPC statistic. They are not of the same blessing, bloodlines, or beliefs of the PCs unless the NPCs are canonically former or potential PCs. In those cases they are separate from the PC population.

What if one holds the attitude that any NPC is actually a PC that hasn't found its player yet?

 

[Micah Sweet]

What do specified ASIs (from anything) add that just giving a better standard array or more points for point buy doesn't?

Ease of use when using default stat generation (rolling).

 

[The Crimson Binome]

What does this mean? I can't ever make a mercenary NPC with 7 Int or the setting is trash?

It means that the process of rolling stats for an NPC is the same as rolling stats for a PC, just like it says in the DMG. There's nothing stopping you from having an NPC with 7 Intelligence, the same way that there's nothing stopping you from having a PC with 7 Intelligence.

If only NPCs were capable of having an Intelligence of 7, and PCs never could, then your setting is trash (to borrow your term) because it's built on meta-gaming. There's no such thing as a believable world that fundamentally operates on the fact that it's just fictional world (aside from silly gimmick settings, that no serious gamer would ever want to play in).

Designing NPCs with player character creation is a whole lot of effort for no upside.

The amount of effort required is variable between games, and the upside is that the world is internally consistent rather than being contrived.

To make a comparison with stories, it's the difference between one that's well-written (and potentially immersive), versus one that's full of plot holes.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Absolutely disagree.

Unless all the PCs are aliens dropped into the game world from somewhere else, they have to be created on the same chassis as NPCs - and NPCs must be created on the same chassis as PCs - or else the setting (or even the whole game) is garbage.

It's non-negotiable.

Hilarious.

 

[Umbran]

There is no such thing as an ‘average’ PC stat as they vary so much and their is no way of calculating that average in the rules or enforcing it.

If you are using point buy, or a standard array, the above is incorrect.

 

[Phoebasss]

It means that the process of rolling stats for an NPC is the same as rolling stats for a PC, just like it says in the DMG. There's nothing stopping you from having an NPC with 7 Intelligence, the same way that there's nothing stopping you from having a PC with 7 Intelligence.

If only NPCs were capable of having an Intelligence of 7, and PCs never could, then your setting is trash (to borrow your term) because it's built on meta-gaming. There's no such thing as a believable world that fundamentally operates on the fact that it's just fictional world (aside from silly gimmick settings, that no serious gamer would ever want to play in).

The amount of effort required is variable between games, and the upside is that the world is internally consistent rather than being contrived.

To make a comparison with stories, it's the difference between one that's well-written (and potentially immersive), versus one that's full of plot holes.

My players don't roll stats. We use point-buy. So there very much is something preventing players from having 7 int. Does the world need to reflect that every person born had twenty something points so everyone in every town has an average statline of 12.5 plus ASIs? Because the 12.5 average is pretty specifically just for PCs.

I don't even stat up most NPCs unless I expect them to be involved in combat. Otherwise I'll just hand them a wisdom mod so they can oppose deception checks and stealth rolls in case the pcs try to rob them. Players aren't the average citizen of the world. They are larger than life from basically level 1. The game explicitly says PC classes should be rare to nonexistent among npcs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I disagree with the main contention though. Floating them is the best possible solution if we're keeping them. Of course skills can be included in culture, but ASIs should not be there. Because I want to prevent "all sorcerers are from Korthe" just as much as I want to prevent "all Wizards are gnomes or high elves"

You know, it's not like one culture in the world is where the charisma bonus comes from. Multiple culture can provide similar bonuses, like two that provide the same +2, but different +1s. And of course the other stuff in the cultures would be different too. It's a little reductive to assume one culture per class.