Do players need something cool every level?

[sniffles]

I'm with GoodKingJayIII here - it depends on what constitutes 'cool' for that player.

I have to admit if I reach a level that doesn't have an attack bonus and save increase, I feel it's a bit of a waste. Spells and feats are nice too, but I don't necessarily expect to get them every level. I do expect something to increase every level, preferrably something more than just skills.

 

[smootrk]

I don't think that it is absolutely necessary, but if I were designing classes for a game with level mechanics, I would build something into each each level beyond the hp/saves/bab stuff. Maybe for some classes it is the spell power factor, for others it might be something else. Something as simple as a skill bonus within certain related fields could be granted.

For instance, I believe that fighters (who have several dead levels) should get a few skill points on those dead levels that they can apply towards character background or racially appropriate skills. A noble knight modeled class would get a few points towards Knowledge Nobility and Riding. A farm-hand turned into a reluctant warrior may get ranks in Profession Farmer & Knowledge local. I use this in a very organic fashion with the direct input of the players to help them build the character they desire.

 

[Sejs]

Need, no. But it's nice.

 

[Nifft]

Depends on my options.

With racial levels and no multi-class penalty (like in MC's Arcana Evolved), one of my PC builds begins with two levels from three different classes, three racial levels, and then goes into a prestige class. Why? Cooler stuff.

Another build (for a class with decent stuff at each level) has zero racial levels or other classes.

A third build has six levels in one class, three "evolved" racial levels, and then maybe a prestige class.

So yeah, it turns out I'm tempted by cool stuff.


IMHO, this is the flaw with full-BAB and full-spellcasting PrCs: they offer more cool stuff at more levels than the "competition" (base classes), without enough up-front cost. I really like how most Psionic manifester-based PrCs cost one or two manifester levels, but give cool stuff to compensate. Cool stuff is sometimes worth raw power, but there should never be a way to get more raw power AND more cool stuff.

Cheers, -- N

 

[EyeontheMountain]

I voted yes, becasue it is always good to get soemthing new. For me spells do not count a big deal, though i of course look forwardc to getting them. (Of course a Druid or CLeric only gets this feeling every other level)

Teh problem is that some classes get loads of abilities, Ranger, Druid, Rogue, Barbarian and some get a few, fighter, bard, wizard, and some get none, Cleric, Sorceror.

The worst part about it for sorcerors and clerics is that their extra improvements (turning, familiar) could be a total waste. Undead turning is useless in many cases unless you devote feats to it or pump it to the stars, or take feats that feed off it, and I have never had a familiar in my life.

Also if you look at the new 20 level clases (Complete series) tehy all get a lot of abilities spread across their careers. Makes the cleric and Sorceror even more pathetic.

 

[Klaus]

Need, no. But it's nice.

QFT.

And the abilities granted in that article are flavorful while being innocuous enough as to not impact on a class's power level.

I quite like that article, and will be using it.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

One thing that filling in the 'dead levels' would help with is the abilities granted by prestige classes. Sorcerers, for example have no real abilities to give up when they gain a spellcasting prestige class. So he goes from gaining spellcasting... which is all the sorcerer gets aside from its familiar liability... to getting spellcasting AND some cool abilities. That hardly seems like a fair trade.

Now, I'm not saying that a spellcasting level is not an ability, just the opposite, in fact. I'm saying that gaining a spellcasting level is such a significant ability that prestige-class abilities are rarely going to stack up to such a loss.

So... yeah. Having some separate and discreet abilities (rather than a single giganto ability, like spellcasting) to give up in order to make prestige-classing into an actual choice, would be nice.

Another thing that a regular spread of abilities could be used for would be to reduce the reliance on stuff without changing the game's assumptions.

Later
silver

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

No -- particularly with skill points gained every level. And most classes have some form of spell casting, where new spells are effectively new abilities. But certainly something every few levels is preferred.

I'm wondering if the influence of CRPGs and MMORPGs, that have 60+ levels where there is a small gain each level to keep the player involved, are not the reason for interest in something each level.

But then, I'm a 1E grognard, where many classes got nothing new after 1st level.

 

[ZSutherland]

I voted 'No,' but if you had phrased the question "Should players get something cool every level?" I probably would have voted yes. One really needs look no further than all the threads that suggest that all sorcerers join a PrC asap "because all you're giving up is familiar progression" to see that most players and DMs consider a level w/o a class ability to be relatively wasted. As an extension of the exercise, prioritize the classes from the PHB from "most likely to run 20 levels w/o multi-classing or PrC" to "least likely to run 20 levels w/o multi-classing or PrC" without regard to your personal preferences in class. Pretend the DM dictated your class to you every campaign, changing that class with each campaign, for 11 campaigns (so you've played each class). Each campaign went to 20th level. I would be very suprised if your list didn't suggest that barbarian, monk, druid, and rogue (in some order) were the most likely and wizard, cleric, and sorcerer weren't the bottom.

 

[MarkB]

Here it talks about dead levels and filling them in so players get something cool each level. Now ignoring the fact that new spells every level is ignored here (spells aren't cool enough anymore? I don't understand why they don't consider getting spells a non dead level): Do you feel that players need something cool every level?

Just from my own personal perspective, I find that as a spellcaster I consider new spells at level-up to be only 'semi-special', but gaining access to a new spell level qualifies as Special. Thus, sorcerers and clerics get something special every other level (aside from levels 2 and 3 for the sorcerer).