Do sleeping characters get saving throws?

[ForceUser]

While thinking up rat bastard DM tactics, I came upon a quandry: certain situations result in a saving throw, such as being caught in the blast of a fireball. The characters get a Reflex save to dodge out of the way. Simple enough. But what if a character is fast asleep? What if a sneaky spellcaster steals upon him in the night and drops that fireball on him? Being totally non-cognizant and unaware of any threat, does the sleeping character still get a save?

My DM's instinct leans toward no saving throw allowed because the character is not only unaware of any danger, he's unaware of anything! Certainly a rat bastard tactic and surely an unpopular one with players if I chose to go this route. Still, I'm hesitant because I want to be fair. I'm not looking for house rules, just precedent. Does anyone know what the "official" way to resolve this is? To save or not to save...that is the question.

 

[IceBear]

It depends. Some people would say no reflex save when you are completely unaware and helpless (I consider being asleep helpless) while others would. Me, I personally would give them a chance to hear the spell and wake up. If they succeed they get a save, if they don't (and don't have some interesting magical items) then no save. The reason I go this route is because it states that if you were helpless or unable to move then you are denied a Reflex save (look up the info on Evasion).

As for being a rat bastard DM - don't they have people on watch? You might get away with it once or twice, but after that the PCs should be prepared.

I would give fortitude and will saves when asleep, though maybe with penalties.

IceBear

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Sleeping characters are helpless (see the condition summary section of the DMG), so their Dexterity is treated as if it were 0. Aside from that, and the resulting change of their Dex modifier to reflex saves to -5, I know of no other factors affecting a sleeping character's saving throws.

 

[IceBear]

From the SRD:

If subjected to an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, a character with evasion takes no damage on a successful save.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one in a completely restrictive area (crawling through a 2 1/2-foot-wide shaft, for example) cannot use evasion.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.

Improved evasion is like evasion, except that even on a failed saving throw the character takes only half damage.

It is on the 2nd paragraph that I base my decision that sleeping characters wouldn't get a Reflex Save (as I consider the sleeping character "bound" unless he should become aware of the danger). Again, I would give a chance to wake up, and if it was going to cause a lot of death I might allow the Save with the -5 penalty just to reflex them instinctively waking and diving for cover at the last moment.

IceBear

 

[TiQuinn]

If you don't give a save while a character is asleep, then consider this scenario: The invisible rogue/wizard sneaks up on the orc guards, who are lazily leaning against their halberds looking bored. The rogue/wizard drops a silenced fireball right into their laps. I suppose they wouldn't get Reflex saves either.

 

[AuraSeer]

For natural sleep, I think I'd allow the character a Reflex save, but with a hefty penalty (at least -10). If he succeeds, he heard or felt the Fireball going off, and reflexively flung himself out of the way just in the nick of time.

Magical sleep is a different story. If the character won't wake up when somebody grabs him to slit his throat, he won't wake up in time to dodge a magical attack.

Either way, he's sure to be awake after the spell goes off.

 

[Pax]

One exception -- Monks. IIRC, they get their saves -- and their DEX and WIS bonusses to AC -- even when asleep or unconscious.

 

[IceBear]

I would in that case, but with a penalty. Why? Because the guards aren't asleep and are moving (no more than if the guards were completely awake when the spell was cast at them - you don't have to be aware of the spell to get a Reflex save - you just have to be able to REACT). In the case of the sleeping PCs, they aren't aware but they can't react either as they are helpless.

Again, depending on the situation I might allow the save with a -5 penalty, but I'd try to give them a chance to wake up first. Obviously it would depend on how often this tactic came up - if it was a common practice then I'd probably go with the -5 to -10 penalty. If it was rare, then no.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

It is on the 2nd paragraph that I base my decision that sleeping characters wouldn't get a Reflex Save (as I consider the sleeping character "bound" unless he should become aware of the danger).

It's also in the 3rd paragraph that "The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion".

I know, I know, they're still helpless.

 

[IceBear]

I know kreynolds, I saw that...that's why the half asleep guards get their save to the silenced fireball, but not those that were asleep, as helpless overrides aware

Besides, what's the guy doing casting fireballs on a party that is asleep and didn't post guards when he could walk in and CdG them all.

A auto fail of a saving throw for full damage is the least of your worries if you're helpless. Would you allow someone that is held to make a save against the fireball? I don't see much difference between held and sleeping other than you might have a chance to wake up - which could be covered by allowing the save with a BIG penalty or allowing a skill check to detect the spell first.

IceBear