Do Something Awesome!

[malraux]

I would like some help with the implementation of an improvisation/stunting rule. I've have found that once players get locked into the power structure, it's really hard to break out of it and do something not on a card. Instead of fighting that, I'd rather put something on a card that is up in the air a bit.

Do Something Awesome Encounter Power
Standard And/or Move
Attack: Attack/Ability Check/Skill Check Vs Something
Hit: Damage from page 42 + status effect

Special: On a miss, you can use a healing surge to convert the miss into a hit. You may also use an Action Point to significantly up the damage (even if you have already spent an AP in this combat).

To use this power, you must describe what you are doing, and it must be reasonably unique.



Is this a reasonable power? It might be a little unbalanced, but that works for me to give players an incentive to use it. For context, I'll be starting the Revenge of the Giants adventure soon, so the players are low Paragon now.

 

[Starfox]

Would something similar to this work for you? It uses the current encounter powers and tries to make them more narrative.

Rules Fiction First: Martial Exploits

If this is not what you want, it might still help you define what you DO want.

 

[Camelot]

The terrain powers on page 62 of the DMG2 are really useful at encouraging the players to use the environment to their benefit. For example, if you have a stairway with a banister and you want to encourage the players to use that, write up this terrain power.

Banister Slide - At-Will Terrain
You slide down the banister, slice at the enemy at the bottom, and roll out of the way before it can attack you back.
Standard Action
Requirement: You must be standing at the top of the staircase, adjacent to a banister.
Check: Acrobatics check (moderate DC) to slide down the banister.
Success: Move to the bottom of the banister and make a melee basic attack or a bull rush attack with a +2 bonus to the attack roll. After the attack, you can shift 2 squares.
Failure: You do not move, and your standard action ends.

If you want the players to come up with ideas themselves, terrain powers are not hard to make up on the fly and you can hide the ones you've created in preparation behind the screen. If your players need a little push, write the powers on power cards similar to the ones the players use and give them to the players at the beginning of the encounter so they know they have more options.

 

[Starfox]

Failure: You do not move, and your standard action ends.

The problem with this approach is that is is almost always worse than an At-Will action. If you have to make a skill check or lose your action, the increased effectiveness you could get must at the very least match the risk of losing your action. If this is not so, then an At-Will is better - and you have created a role-play tax.

 

[malraux]

The problem with this approach is that is is almost always worse than an At-Will action. If you have to make a skill check or lose your action, the increased effectiveness you could get must at the very least match the risk of losing your action. If this is not so, then an At-Will is better - and you have created a role-play tax.

For an example of how that would work with my proposed rule: Rather than Acrobatics check to start the action, the PC uses the acrobatic check as their attack role (probably vs AC) and does damage of 3d8 + dex and target is prone. With an action point, it would be 4d10 + dex and target is prone (must succeed on a save before standing).

Skill checks often lead attack role numbers, so there's an inherent bonus to attacking. The damage is pretty sizable; certainly its better than a basic melee attack or bull rush, especially for the dexterous/acrobatic character who would be more likely to attempt something like this.

 

[malraux]

Would something similar to this work for you? It uses the current encounter powers and tries to make them more narrative.

Rules Fiction First: Martial Exploits

If this is not what you want, it might still help you define what you DO want.

Yeah, that's exactly the opposite of what I want. That is making major changes to the power system and is an attempt to make the whole game narativist. In addition, I don't necessarily want just the martial characters thinking in that way, but everyone. If the wizard finds a magic circle, I'd love for him to do something break apart some of the inherent magic there to explode on an enemy. I do not want every single power to involve creative thinking, as I actually really like the power structure. I just want a way within the current power structure to encourage occasional breaking away from it.

 

[LostSoul]

Yeah, that's exactly the opposite of what I want. That is making major changes to the power system and is an attempt to make the whole game narativist.

I would say that the change has nothing to do with creative agenda at all, but somehow I figure we're using different definitions!

In addition, I don't necessarily want just the martial characters thinking in that way, but everyone.

Me too, but I haven't gotten around to dealing with spells and prayers just yet. I'm not sure how I'll write it up, but I do know what I want. Command is probably the best example: With that prayer you can give someone a one-word command and he'll do it if you hit.

Anyway, that's off-topic for your thread. I'll try to actually provide something helpful!

What are you trying to achieve with your improv/stunting rule?

Is that power balanced? No, not really, but that's actually what you want. Sometimes other powers will be better (even at-wills) but often this will be the smart choice. That will force people out of the power system.

It will also change the adventuring day because it puts more strain on healing surges; however, there's a tension between that and extra damage from APs. Players will have to make some interesting choices, I think.

What are you thinking about for damage? I'd probably set it pretty high, maybe in the low limited damage expression range, with the AP bumping it up to high. At the level you're at the PCs should have a good number of encounter powers, and low limited damage is around what you get from an encounter power. (I could be wrong.)


One of the reasons I think people get locked into seeing powers is because they operate outside of the game world. We've all heard the one about tripping an ooze. Because of this, when a player is forced to make a decision he's not thinking about the details of the game world, he's thinking about what power would work best in the situation. He's thinking about things like AC, HP, 2[W] and push 3, etc.

If you can get the player to start thinking, "That guy is really quick but he doesn't look too strong or tough; maybe if I can get a hold of him, like Marv did fighting Frodo in Sin City, I'll have him", or something along those lines, then I think you'll see players start breaking out of the power structure and trying different things.

 

[malraux]

I would say that the change has nothing to do with creative agenda at all, but somehow I figure we're using different definitions!

...

Me too, but I haven't gotten around to dealing with spells and prayers just yet. I'm not sure how I'll write it up, but I do know what I want. Command is probably the best example: With that prayer you can give someone a one-word command and he'll do it if you hit.

Yeah, that's way more work than I want to put it. And the terms aren't really important; but in short, I really don't mind the PCs unimmersively using powers, I want an easy way to step out occasionally.

What are you trying to achieve with your improv/stunting rule?

Mostly awesomeness. But specifically, I think the 4e rules are pretty nice but sometimes things get repetitive. I'd like a way to encourage the players to take advantage of the terrain or pull off creative ideas, even if their current powers don't have a space for it.

Is that power balanced? No, not really, but that's actually what you want. Sometimes other powers will be better (even at-wills) but often this will be the smart choice. That will force people out of the power system.

That's the goal. If its automatically the best choice over even dailies, then its a bit much. But if its about as good as an encounter power, then that's about right.

It will also change the adventuring day because it puts more strain on healing surges; however, there's a tension between that and extra damage from APs. Players will have to make some interesting choices, I think.


What are you thinking about for damage? I'd probably set it pretty high, maybe in the low limited damage expression range, with the AP bumping it up to high. At the level you're at the PCs should have a good number of encounter powers, and low limited damage is around what you get from an encounter power. (I could be wrong.)

What I was thinking of for damage is the low limited damage but instead of the static plus the relevant ability modifier, similarly with the high limited with an AP.

One of the reasons I think people get locked into seeing powers is because they operate outside of the game world. We've all hear the one about tripping an ooze. Because of this, when a player is forced to make a decision he's not thinking about the details of the game world, he's thinking about what power would work best in the situation. He's thinking about things like AC, HP, 2[W] and push 3, etc.

If you can get the player to start thinking, "That guy is really quick but he doesn't look too strong or tough; maybe if I can get a hold of him, like Marv did fighting Frodo in Sin City, I'll have him", or something along those lines, then I think you'll see players start breaking out of the power structure and trying different things.

Agreed with that. Just as I figure monsters are often heavily reskinned, in the game world the attacks and conditions are also different in appearance even if they have the same mechanical numbers. And its not that my players don't grog this, but it often doesn't break through into play.

 

[LostSoul]

Cool, I think this should work well. I'd be interested in seeing how this effects healing surges and APs in play.

Another thing you might want to try is to circle certain spots on the battlemap when you draw it, saying "These spots could probably be used to do something creative." 4E is robust enough that you don't really need to pre-plan "terrain powers" or whatever the DMG2 calls them; I think you can figure out how to do it on the fly.

(I put a bunch of things like that in certain encounters with the hopes that players could use them, but I never specifically drew attention to them and usually the players wouldn't pick up on them.)

That should help players break out of the power structure every now and then.

 

[Alex319]

If you can get the player to start thinking, "That guy is really quick but he doesn't look too strong or tough; maybe if I can get a hold of him, like Marv did fighting Frodo in Sin City, I'll have him", or something along those lines, then I think you'll see players start breaking out of the power structure and trying different things.

That particular example doesn't require thinking outside of the power structure at all. If the target is "really quick", he probably has a high Speed and/or powers that let him shift, so it's going to be hard for the players to keep him in the square that they want him, but if a character grabs him or immobilizes him then he can't move, in accordance with the normal rules for grab and immobilize.