D&D 5E Do We Really Need a Lot of Gold? (D&D 5th Edition)

[Reynard]

The 5e doesn't ignore that. It's all in the DMG downtime activity section. If groups (DMs and players) ignore that it's a group culture problem. Not a design problem.

I didn't say a single word about design. You are arguing with the wrong person on that score.

But if you look at what WotC has produced for adventures -- the things that really tell you what the game is for and how it is meant to be played -- only one (Dragon Heist) embraces the PCs spending any real time in their world, interacting with the people that live there and becoming part of it. Otherwise they are mostly theme-parking their way to the final boss.

 

[Marc_C]

Yes, you can build a castle for 50,000 GP in 400 days. Or your character can spend those 400 days going on quests, killing monsters, and getting to level 20 where they have god-like powers and can traverse the planes. Actually, it probably wouldn't even take 400 days to do that. Strongholds are given a couple pages in the 5e dmg because they were in the 1e dmg and are part making dnd 'feel like' dnd, not because they are an integrated part of the game.

Actually the character does both at the same time. Hire an architect and an engineer. Let them handle construction. Characters can chew gum and walk at the same time.

Sure, you can hand wave rules you don't like as incomplete. I don't share your opinion. The section is detailed enough and usable. I've payed D&D since 1981 and don't need more than what is printed in the 5e DMG.

 

[Thunder Brother]

Yes, you can build a castle for 50,000 GP in 400 days. Or your character can spend those 400 days going on quests, killing monsters, and getting to level 20 where they have god-like powers and can traverse the planes. Actually, it probably wouldn't even take 400 days to do that. Strongholds are given a couple pages in the 5e dmg because they were in the 1e dmg and are part making dnd 'feel like' dnd, not because they are an integrated part of the game.

On one hand, the DM can control how fast a party levels up. If they want to run a campaign were leveling up occurs over the course of weeks, months, or years, they can.

On the other hand, all official material assumes the party is going to be leveling up fast, sometimes even multiple levels in a single day.

Which of these two leveling paces is the expectation for most players? The answer is fairly obvious. If WotC really wants to make downtime an important part of play, they should make adventures that lean into its usage.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It always comes back to the DMG. This time page 126-131. It's spelled out very clearly how to drain the character's gold. Not a bad design. Works beautifully. I've actually read the 5e DMG from cover to cover.

It's a DM problem not a design problem. Some DMs don't read the DMG thinking I've read one have read them all. Wrong.

Dude, no. That's the downtime section and basically says "hey, you should build a stronghold or make magic items." And you are ignoring that there are plenty of people who don't want to do that.

There is nothing in the PHB or branding for the game that tells people "ooh, this is great -- you're going to loot ancient tombs so you can BUILD A GUILDHALL." It's not what people are signing up for.

There is a resource that accumulates by doing Activity A that you cannot spend in aid of Activity A. The fact that the DMG says "here's Activities B, C and D you can use with that resource instead" is not good design. Telling someone they have to start a different style of play to use the resource is an admission by the designers that the resource has little relevance to Activity A.

DMs aren't bad DMs for not saying "sorry, dude, at this point, you're pretty much required to start spending that gold on all these activities in order to remain engaged with treasure as a motivational tool." In fact, I'd say that them acting that way would be a great example of being a crappy DM. If your players want to do Activity A (adventure and kill stuff), forcing them to do something they've expressed no interest in is a great way to be one of these ENWorld posters who bemoan their inability to hold a group together.

The fix for "what the hell do I do with all this damned gold" isn't more downtime activities, it's to dramatically reduce the amount of gold given out by default in the game unless your players express a desire to do all those downtime activities.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Ironically, CRPGs spend more time integrating gold/money into the core play experience than 5e...

CRPG designers, by virtue of interacting with programmers all the time, do a lot better job of thinking about systems, in my experience. (I've worked with and am friends with designers of both sorts of games.)

 

[Reynard]

Yes, you can build a castle for 50,000 GP in 400 days. Or your character can spend those 400 days going on quests, killing monsters, and getting to level 20 where they have god-like powers and can traverse the planes. Actually, it probably wouldn't even take 400 days to do that. Strongholds are given a couple pages in the 5e dmg because they were in the 1e dmg and are part making dnd 'feel like' dnd, not because they are an integrated part of the game.

Emphasis mine. This is NOT a feature, it is a bug.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The 5e doesn't ignore that. It's all in the DMG downtime activity section. If groups (DMs and players) ignore that it's a group culture problem. Not a design problem.

"I got in this game to kill monsters and go on adventures, as it's marketed about being about, not to be a guildmaster or build a castle" is not a culture problem. Or if it is, it's a culture problem in the Renton offices of WotC.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yeah. In 2021 people don't play WoW anymore. It's FFXIV now.

Usage stats suggest the opposite, but certainly, lots of people have moved on to FFXIV or other stuff. (If I were quitting WoW, it'd be for Sea of Thieves, myself.) My raiding group goes to FFXIV between WoW patches and are coming back online for the new raid being released in July.

 

[Reynard]

Dude, no. That's the downtime section and basically says "hey, you should build a stronghold or make magic items." And you are ignoring that there are plenty of people who don't want to do that.

There is nothing in the PHB or branding for the game that tells people "ooh, this is great -- you're going to loot ancient tombs so you can BUILD A GUILDHALL." It's not what people are signing up for.

There is a resource that accumulates by doing Activity A that you cannot spend in aid of Activity A. The fact that the DMG says "here's Activities B, C and D you can use with that resource instead" is not good design. Telling someone they have to start a different style of play to use the resource is an admission by the designers that the resource has little relevance to Activity A.

DMs aren't bad DMs for not saying "sorry, dude, at this point, you're pretty much required to start spending that gold on all these activities in order to remain engaged with treasure as a motivational tool." In fact, I'd say that them acting that way would be a great example of being a crappy DM. If your players want to do Activity A (adventure and kill stuff), forcing them to do something they've expressed no interest in is a great way to be one of these ENWorld posters who bemoan their inability to hold a group together.

The fix for "what the hell do I do with all this damned gold" isn't more downtime activities, it's to dramatically reduce the amount of gold given out by default in the game unless your players express a desire to do all those downtime activities.

This speaks to motivation, of course. If the PCs' motivation is NOT to acquire wealth, what is it? Note -- I asked the player characters' motivation, so "gaining levels" is probably not a good one unless the game is very meta. "Gaining power" in a more general sense is better, as is, "finding magic items!" because they things that exist in the world. But then the question comes to "why?" Why does your character want power or magic items?

If we aren't talking about quests to save the princess/realm/world on a clock, if the players have agency over their characters' actions in the world, then they need good motivations. "Gold" is an easy one that suggests the kind of places D&D excels at presenting, namely Dungeons and Dragons' lairs. "Uncovering ancient knowledge" and "finding my mother's heirloom sword wherever she fell in battle" are good ones too, but "get rich" is a concrete, understandable, powerful motivator.

 

[Malmuria]

Actually the character does both at the same time. Hire an architect and an engineer. Let them handle construction. Characters can chew gum and walk at the same time.

Sure, you can hand wave rules you don't like as incomplete. I don't share your opinion. The section is detailed enough and usable. I've payed D&D since 1981 and don't need more than what is printed in the 5e DMG.

What I mean is that a lot of things are included in 5e simply because they've become genre conventions for what "dnd" should include, especially given that 5e has been so nostaliga-driven. But there's a gap between the "classic" playstyle and the more contemporary OC/neo-trad playstyle. If you are running or playing in an adventure-path style game, there's a lot of aspects to the game where you look at it and you're like, 'wait, why is this here?'

These aspects could be updated; I'm not overly familiar with them, but I think the sidekick and survivor rules they have been introducing are an interesting update to hirelings and henchmen that is more themed around the typical 5e playstyle.