D&D (2024) Do We Really Need Levels 11-20?

[prabe]

For me, decentering the PCs is the reason I eschew published adventures in the first place, no matter the level.

Likewise.

I would also think the freedom to roam granted by spells like wind walk or teleport or plane shift also makes an adventure path built around exploring a specific "dungeon site" pretty challenging.

Yeah, those sorts of spells are when it really feels as though the PCs get to set their goals and go after them, and the durability of the characters gives the DM room (I think) to push things against them a bit harder.

That said, I've had high-level PCs poke around in a dungeon (and clear it) and I've had high-level PCs not just teleport to a place (and I've had high-level PCs teleport to a place that wasn't where they meant to go, whoopsie) so even those spells aren't always perfect solutions.

 

[The Soloist]

Why not.

I did a Blackmoor 5e campaign in which the PCs started directly at level 12. They were celebrated heroes of the land from the get go. It was fun to throw them against the nefarious illithids and powerful aberrations. They reached level 14 at the conclusion. The players enjoyed trying spells and abilities they hadn't before.

Not every campaign needs to start at level one.

 

[Piperken]

Back in the 80s, the goal was to get to 20th, 30th or as high a level as you could possibly get players. It had been drilled into me you had to get to these levels as a rite of passage and prove your salt as a DM. If you didn't have games that regularly went to 20th level and beyond, you were a poor DM - that sort of thing. The designers didn't seem to share that sentiment - there's barely any 10th+ official adventures and other than the semi-joke Throne of Bloodstone, I can't recall any pre-3E adventures that went as high as 20th level.

After my first campaign got into the 15th-18th range however, I decided that was not the game I wanted to play. After the last few campaigns I've done, I'm happy to cut off as soon after 9th level as I can. Getting a hold of Old School Essentials and its 15th level cutoff further reinforced that I'm more than happy to cut off well before 20th level.

Sometimes it even irks me that D&D is so huge that it takes up 3 books for the "base" game. The D&D Rules Encycylopedia showed it was possible to put a more than complete D&D game in a single book, and I'd love a "5E D&D lite" treatment of an all-in-one book that cut off no later than 15th level.

I feel like there should be space for above kind of play. I think the current edition would benefit from smishing the levels by half.

Restructuring could spur more product to be developed i.e. for older editions, where higher level play (Levels 1-36) exists.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes.

We also needed levels 21-30, but I've accepted that that's a lost cause.

 

[R_J_K75]

Sometimes it even irks me that D&D is so huge that it takes up 3 books for the "base" game. The D&D Rules Encycylopedia showed it was possible to put a more than complete D&D game in a single book, and I'd love a "5E D&D lite" treatment of an all-in-one book that cut off no later than 15th level.

The current D&D 2024 revision class chapter is 127 pages long. IMO ridiculously long and makes it very hard for me as a DM to remember specific class abilities. If they pared this back, I'd buy a single rules lite 5E core book. I'd even cap levels at 10 and reduce the number of spells and spell levels.

 

[ECMO3]

I've seen various sources saying most D&D campaigns end by the time the characters are between levels 7-10. Assuming this is true, why bother with levels 11-20? Okay, I get it. Assuming most campaigns go no higher than 10, there are still some people who do have campaigns that go that high and obviously they want support for that, but wouldn't it be better to focus on the levels people are actually playing through?

Playing high-level D&D may not be the norm, but a lot of people do it. I have played a number of 1-20 campaigns in 5E and completed one 2-20 campaign using 2024.

The one using 2024 was not that great, maybe they will get better, but the 5E ones were for the most part pretty awesome.

In any case, yes I see a need for levels 11-20, but I am not convinced the 2024 ruleset is the one to use for it.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

As a DM I just like running high levels so the players can fight the big name baddies of D&D. I've had players in my campaigns fighting a kraken, Yeenoghu, Geryon, Doresain, and Orcus so far.

 

[DEFCON 1]

What are people expecting to use those extra pages for?

I mean are people really that hard up for Player's Handbook material that they think it's really that important to remove information on Levels 11-20 so that there's space for other stuff? What stuff are they looking for? Heck... the 5E24 Player's Handbook already even expanded up an additional 64 pages over the 5E14 PHB and that's still not enough for people that they still feel the need to strip out Levels 11-20?

I'm not one who tends to go that far into the 11-20 range either, but even so, I don't see any reason to not include that material for those that want it. Cause I don't foresee anything better being included in the PHB in its stead.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

To address the OP, I’ll say: yes, we do need the higher levels.
Why? Because, even if your campaign doesn’t make it (deep) into the higher levels, players do like to read about what might be possible for their character at high levels. And even plot out what spells and/or feats and/or classes they might take to realize their end character concept (which tends to evolve as the campaign progresses providing a reasonable amount of “lonely fun” between sessions.)

 

[MGibster]

Why? Because, even if your campaign doesn’t make it (deep) into the higher levels, players do like to read about what might be possible for their character at high levels.

Do they? I might be an outlier here, but I don't particularly enjoy reading about abilities I'm unlikely to ever have an opportunity to use.

What are people expecting to use those extra pages for?

Is any aspect of making a character and abilities gained when leveling affected by the expectation that characters will go to level 20? If characters who multi-class are going to miss out on access to high level spells, it doesn't really matter if they were never going to reach high levels to begin with.