Do wizards suck? / multiple attacks

[Doctor Proctor]

My main issue, then, is that it seems to put the cart (role) before the horse (class), and seems to favor game balance over simulationist realism or narrative flexibility, and is thus more of a "gamist" RPG than a "simulationist" or "narrativist" one. I am not saying this is wrong, just...limited to a certain vein and style of RPGing. But at least it seems like it is a conscious choice.

So you're implying that the Wizard is not realistically simulated when using magic? Who says that they have to do large amounts of damage? Some of the iconic Wizards of fantasy never cast anything remotely resembling a Fireball spell (Gandalf, Merlin, Morgan La Fey).

As for "narrative flexibility", what does the damage per target for the Wizard have to do with the narrative? He can still smite entire armies (of minions) with his At-Wills, it's not like he's some old crone shaking his staff impotently at his foes. He just doesn't do the same amount of damage per target that a Rogue does when he sneaks up behind someone and shoves a Dagger into their spine. I also would't expect him to.

 

[Mistwell]

I play the wizard in our group, and I have been very pleased with how the class has played out so far. Some battles, like the Irontooth one, I was crucial to our success due to minion killing with flaming sphere. Others, I am just tactical help, like the debuffing of Illusory Ambush or Grasping Shadows. And sometimes I am the guy who sets the field up for others to knock down, like with Thunderwave.

Out of combat, I get a lot of use out of my cantrips, and eventually rituals.

So far, I love the wizard, and find them to be my favorite class. Not weak at all, just not like wizards in prior editions is all.

 

[Mad Hamish]

OK, I get it: the wizard is a controller, not a striker, and thus better at doing moderate amounts of damage to larger numbers rather than high amounts to one. Fine. My main issue, then, is that it seems to put the cart (role) before the horse (class), and seems to favor game balance over simulationist realism or narrative flexibility, and is thus more of a "gamist" RPG than a "simulationist" or "narrativist" one. I am not saying this is wrong, just...limited to a certain vein and style of RPGing. But at least it seems like it is a conscious choice.

I don't see where you're coming from for the cart before the horse idea.

D&D has never been a simulationist game.

I'm not really sure what you mean by a narrativist one, but I can't see how making wizards able to do more damage would increase the narrativist focus of a game.

It is a game that plays a fairly tight band of fantasy genres out of the box (as more splat books and power books come out the different editions each became able to cover more)

 

[keterys]

As far as at-wills go, if the wizard can arrange to catch a _2nd_ target in a scorching burst once every _3_ times he casts it, then it does as much damage as any other class's at-wills except the Ranger's Twin Strike or Fighter's Dual Strike.

And that's a problem with those two powers, not the wizard.

Ie, 4d6+4*(Int+Enh+Feat) vs. 3d8+3*(Dex+Cha+Enh+Feat) will net you like 46 vs. 46.5 - and that's _very_ conservative on hitting multiple targets, with just a total of 4 targets per 3 casts.

I showed up for a game recently and we had 3 wizards and the DM was really worried about how we'd get through the mod... the answer was that they obliterated _everything_. Sure, they spread damage around a lot... but _everything_ fell down in short order cause 3 or 4 things were getting hit at once.

 

[Mad Hamish]

The comparison of scorching burst versus other at wills depends a bit on what weapons people are using.

If scorching burst doesn't do it Magic Missile averages 5 + bonuses which is only down .5 hp / hit compared to a d10 and 1.5 versus a d12 (which typically takes a feat to get...)

As to multiple wizards taking things out quickly it'll work on bunched foes, not so much on people spread out for a skirmish and a wizard will go down pretty quickly if enemies reach him (although their AC is comparable to most other classes the hit points aren't except for maybe a staff build)

 

[Skywalker]

OK, I get it: the wizard is a controller, not a striker, and thus better at doing moderate amounts of damage to larger numbers rather than high amounts to one. Fine. My main issue, then, is that it seems to put the cart (role) before the horse (class), and seems to favor game balance over simulationist realism or narrative flexibility, and is thus more of a "gamist" RPG than a "simulationist" or "narrativist" one. I am not saying this is wrong, just...limited to a certain vein and style of RPGing. But at least it seems like it is a conscious choice.

No it isn't. A Wizard doing higher damage is neither more "simulationist" or "narrativist" or less "gamist" than the 4e approach. It is merely a mechanical consequence of the rules as written.

4e takes a different approach than previous editions and your expectations conflicting with it. That's cool, but it isn't a sign of any greater issue.

FWIW it is IMO the first time that D&D has really tried to find some place for the wizard that isn't overwhelming at higher levels.

 

[Regicide]

Some of the iconic Wizards of fantasy never cast anything remotely resembling a Fireball spell (Gandalf, Merlin, Morgan La Fey).

Well, when you hit epic level you're too busy traveling through time, bringing entire forests to life and the like to bother wasting your time with something like fireball. Well, unless you're showing off to a bunch of hobbits at a birthday celebration. Then you use your metamagic feats to control the fireball and make it look like a dragon and have it fly around.

 

[Goumindong]

Wizards are frankly fantastic. Especially when coupled with a strong leader that can grant saves.

Their weakness are

1: MAD

Wizards need very high to hit to be effective(they need to ensure that their status effects land). But at the same time, many of their at wills and feats rely heavily on secondary stats.

In the end they want 15 dex by paragon tier, and as much wisdom as possible without forsaking constitution. This maximizes the ability to use thunderwave, which is probably the strongest at will in the game, high monster fort not withstanding.

2. Stuns/dazes:

The real power of wizards is seen in their sustainable daily zones. Screw fireball, if you want to do damage you pick up poison cloud. Now not only do you not need to make attack rolls to do damage but you can shove people into it to stack it up. Ever seen a wizard do 45 damage in a single round to a single enemy at level 6? I have done it with an un optimized wizard(Dwarf Staff wizard thunder waves the enemy into a poison cloud, he fails his save takes damage for entering the cloud and then takes damage again at the start of his turn).

Stuns and dazes make it harder for you to use these with your regular powers which means that you need a leader to get you out of it before it hampers your actions. Melee classes can just charge, but not so the wizard. You are action dependent.

3. Have lots of traps.

Save ends powers are not all that great, and not in abundance enough to really abuse compared to just hitting a lot and making sure you hit when you need it(or don't get hit)

Anyway:

By level 6 you have 3 daily sustain powers. Two of these do excellent damage(flaming sphere and Stinking Cloud both essentially turn you into strikers when attacking anyone that takes damage from those powers) and one of these makes your defensive position freaking amazing(Wall of Fog).

Stinking Cloud makes it hard for enemies to attack you -5 penalty for full concealment and does lots of damage/round. Flaming sphere blocks off areas and does good damage/round. Wall of Fog gets placed right on top of your defensive position and grants full concealment to you while you can look out unmolested.

Assuming 5 encounters per day, wizards get 3 dailies that provide massive benefit over the entire encounter by level 6.

So long as you're looking in the right area's you'll see the power available.

 

[Mistwell]

1: MAD

Wizards need very high to hit to be effective(they need to ensure that their status effects land). But at the same time, many of their at wills and feats rely heavily on secondary stats.

In the end they want 15 dex by paragon tier, and as much wisdom as possible without forsaking constitution. This maximizes the ability to use thunderwave, which is probably the strongest at will in the game, high monster fort not withstanding.

Wizards do not have MAD. In fact, they are usually top of the list for least impacted by this issue, since they only actually need Int.

The "D" in MAD stands for Dependent. They are not dependent on three attributes. You cannot have it all. Period. You cannot have a Dex 15 by paragon, and the appropriate Int, and a high Wis. You have to sacrifice either Wis or Dex. And once you do, it all works out fine. You never needed all three, and are not dependent on all three. It's just an option where you have to choose one direction or another, not a weakness.

Personally, I choose to ditch Dex, because you do not need to depend on thunderwave at higher levels given all your great utility, encounter, and daily powers. That one feat is just not worth giving up Wis for it, in my opinion.

 

[DracoSuave]

1) Scorching Burst does not suck. It is an at-will attack that ignores cover and concealment. Point to an at-will any other PHB1 class has that does that. It can hit multiple targets. It is -very- useful.

2) Thunderwave does not suck. If you have a pit, differences in elevation, or simply terrain that is pleasing, it quickly outdamages -anything- that your party puts out. Oh look, there's a trap there. Thunderwave the monster onto it. Bam. Now you win.

3) Ray of Frost does not suck. Kite a guy in melee. If they get too close, refer to Thunderwave.

4) Magic Missle does not suck. With free basic attacks from a warlord, it's a decent damage attack that uses your primary attribute.

5) Cloud of Daggers does not suck. It, at worst, auto-kills a minion, and at best, does the most damage of all the at-wills.

6) Wizards require Int.... and.... um... maybe another attribute. Maybe Wisdom. Maybe Constitution. Maybe. But they don't NEED them to the level of any other class.

7) They can start with the equivalent armor of Plate Armor. 18 Int, +1 staff of defense, +1 Staff Fighting, +2 Leather Armor.

8) Did I mention Staff Of Defense?

You have awesome abilities. Spend less time complaining about their suck and more time not sucking at using them.