Do wizards suck? / multiple attacks

[DracoSuave]

Personally, I choose to ditch Dex, because you do not need to depend on thunderwave at higher levels given all your great utility, encounter, and daily powers. That one feat is just not worth giving up Wis for it, in my opinion.

Pssssst.... Thunderwave uses Wisdom.

 

[Victim]

2) Thunderwave does not suck. If you have a pit, differences in elevation, or simply terrain that is pleasing, it quickly outdamages -anything- that your party puts out. Oh look, there's a trap there. Thunderwave the monster onto it. Bam. Now you win.

And other wizard powers can be used to build the advantageous environment yourself. Push somebody into a Wall of Fire and they'll take the damage for entering it, and then possibly the damage for starting their turn it. That really adds up.

 

[junkielectric]

Is the rogue wielding two weapons? From the sound of it, you guys (like a lot of us) didn't really bother to fully read the rules before playing, and he may still be taking full round attack actions (which no longer exist).

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

So far, my wizard usually does the most total damage in a fight as long as there are at least four opponents on the field. The more, the merrier.

Exact same experience I'm having with mine and pretty much the experience I've seen when I've been the rogue, the warlock or the cleric in other parties. The wizard is super effective at dishing out damage just not massive damage to a single target in one round. Sphere adds up though. Even on a solo encounter the wizard with sphere in play will keep pace with a rogue who gets CA every round.

Regarding Lightning Bolt : It's surgical. It pretty much guarantees three target if they are available without endangering (or needing help from) your buddies. Three hits would mean 4D6 + 3*[Int + Implement + feat] which is more total damage than a striker power of equivalent level.

I've done monster damage with the lowly Burning hand but you can't fit five enemies or more in it every fight.

yes the 6-7 target hands is a joy to behold even if very rare. Same with fire shroud that is both surgical and has a massive area of effect. 49 squares makes getting 4-7 attacks possible quite a bit of the time. Nothing like the joy of scoring 4 or 5 ongoing damages. This is my favorite spell on the round I just got a power bonus for such as the +2 for a turn from divine glow. I had a 5 for 5 outing with shroud this weekend and the damage was 1 below max for 14 per target. Coupled with 4 missed saves I was up around 100 damage by the end of 3 rounds. Not typical but 100 dmg for a level 3 encounter power is pretty nasty.

The Wizard suffers from some conservative design out of the gate. The Invoker and Druid showcase what the Controller is supposed to be capable of better than the Wizard. Arcane Power should help the Wizard catch up, though.

He will, hopefully, not be the guy that has to drop Area of Effect damage on his own front-line just to get more than one enemy in the area for much longer, though.

- Marty Lund

I'm happy if I'm getting two attacks per round with my wizard. I always look for more, that sweet spot where my eladrin can teleport to and drop a burning hands in just the right spot and catch a bunch of guys with it. But as long as I get to attack two creatures a round I feel like I'm getting more than my fair share of bang for the buck. i'm unsure about too conservative a design for wizards and if the arcane power splat book gives too much additional crunch for wizards they might easily become too powerful. They certainly not struggling to contribute already.

 

[Bleoberis De Ganis]

Wizards are okay - just wish you got an extra at-will per teir, but I could say that for all the classes.

(wotc keep saying they want players to have more choice but they seem obsessed with limiting it. Having more options, through gaining more at-wills and being able to select from a number of encounters/dailies a limited number of times per encounter/day would give more choice, not make characters more 'powerful'. Personal gripe.)

Or if they could add as many powers to their spell book as they could get their hands on and select which ones they could use that day (I don't want vancian back, but a little.)

Some spells need more 'control' especially the at-wills, and Thunderwave should move 1 + wis, not just wis. That way you would get to move them whatever your wis is, even if it was just 1 square. Secondary abilities should make spells work better, not just make them work at all. This goes for all powers for all classes (Special build feature bonuses not included.)

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

The comparison of scorching burst versus other at wills depends a bit on what weapons people are using.

If scorching burst doesn't do it Magic Missile averages 5 + bonuses which is only down .5 hp / hit compared to a d10 and 1.5 versus a d12 (which typically takes a feat to get...)

As to multiple wizards taking things out quickly it'll work on bunched foes, not so much on people spread out for a skirmish and a wizard will go down pretty quickly if enemies reach him (although their AC is comparable to most other classes the hit points aren't except for maybe a staff build)

Wizards are probably the toughest class to get down. The start with guaranteed high AC and reflex (73% of all attacks target these). The can easily have AC 18+ by level 1 or 2 and they can pump that AC to 22 for one round per combat (including blocking one hit retroactively) and this doesn't even factor in the chance from staff to block another hit. Foes need to bunch in order to bring the wizards down. It's not like one melee type is going to totally overwhelm a wizard in most cases. As soon as 2-3 monsters target a single wizard they open the door to the wizard (and other wizards in his party) all getting 2+ attacks per round. This effectively lets a party with multiple wizards have a focus fire type effect on multiple targets simultaneously.

4e takes a different approach than previous editions and your expectations conflicting with it. That's cool, but it isn't a sign of any greater issue.

FWIW it is IMO the first time that D&D has really tried to find some place for the wizard that isn't overwhelming at higher levels.

This is really the heart of the matter. The OP was looking for the massive damage vs many targets capability that was wizards of old. (i.e. 10d6 fireballs doing 18/35 dmg to 3-10 targets at level 10)

Wizards are frankly fantastic. Especially when coupled with a strong leader that can grant saves.

Their weakness are

1: MAD

Wizards need very high to hit to be effective(they need to ensure that their status effects land). But at the same time, many of their at wills and feats rely heavily on secondary stats.

heavily is a stretch. Pushing 2 squares instead of 3 isn't crippling, arcane reach is a tough feat to reach unless you're eladrin, then an initial 12 in dex means 15 at level 11 without any bumps on the 4/8 levels.

In the end they want 15 dex by paragon tier, and as much wisdom as possible without forsaking constitution. This maximizes the ability to use thunderwave, which is probably the strongest at will in the game, high monster fort not withstanding.

It's only one feat and not "critical". Wisdom and Con are both good for wizards but you can get by with pumping mostly wisdom with an occasional point in con. This will give acceptable values in both staff and orb at paragon+

2. Stuns/dazes:

The real power of wizards is seen in their sustainable daily zones. Screw fireball, if you want to do damage you pick up poison cloud. Now not only do you not need to make attack rolls to do damage but you can shove people into it to stack it up. Ever seen a wizard do 45 damage in a single round to a single enemy at level 6? I have done it with an un optimized wizard(Dwarf Staff wizard thunder waves the enemy into a poison cloud, he fails his save takes damage for entering the cloud and then takes damage again at the start of his turn).

Not sure how this can possibly be 45 damage at level 6 (it's 3 possible damages) d6+IMP+INT and 2*(d10+IMP+INT) Int should be no more than +4 for a dwarf by this level and IMP should at most be +2 as well so that's 18+d6+2d10 = 44 max and only 1 time in 600 assuming you hit with thunderwave and the monster fails his save so call it 1 chance in over 2000. You're still looking at 32 avg dmg in this kind of scenario. I still agree that the sustainable daily powers with automatic dmg are the serious power in a wizards arsenal, just not quite as good as your post implies.

Stuns and dazes make it harder for you to use these with your regular powers which means that you need a leader to get you out of it before it hampers your actions. Melee classes can just charge, but not so the wizard. You are action dependent.

Wizards are action challenged to some small degree and stuns and dazes can seriously hurt a wizards ability in an encounter. This doesn't make them less valuable than the fighter it just demonstrates that when they aren't stunned or dazed they're usually getting an action economy that allows them to gain attacks and damages with minors and moves. This is an upside not a downside.

Save ends powers are not all that great, and not in abundance enough to really abuse compared to just hitting a lot and making sure you hit when you need it(or don't get hit)

Save ends powers are awesome. You can couple them with an orb wizard and seriously hinder one creature per encounter. You can simply get lucky and have a creature or two struggle for rounds to shrug off a condition that robs them of actions or defenses or mobility or all three. It can also mean free damage for rounds to come If you get 3-4 hits with fire shroud there's a better than even chance you'll get 30-40 extra damage and with a little luck you might be accumulating damage even 4-5 rounds later.

By level 6 you have 3 daily sustain powers. Two of these do excellent damage(flaming sphere and Stinking Cloud both essentially turn you into strikers when attacking anyone that takes damage from those powers) and one of these makes your defensive position freaking amazing(Wall of Fog).

what's amazing about wall of fog? the -5 of stinking cloud works in both directions and wall of fog usually only is advantageous for one round.

Wizards do not have MAD. In fact, they are usually top of the list for least impacted by this issue, since they only actually need Int.

This.

You never needed all three, and are not dependent on all three. It's just an option where you have to choose one direction or another, not a weakness.

This too.

1) Scorching Burst does not suck. It is an at-will attack that ignores cover and concealment. Point to an at-will any other PHB1 class has that does that. It can hit multiple targets. It is -very- useful.

2) Thunderwave does not suck. If you have a pit, differences in elevation, or simply terrain that is pleasing, it quickly outdamages -anything- that your party puts out. Oh look, there's a trap there. Thunderwave the monster onto it. Bam. Now you win.

3) Ray of Frost does not suck. Kite a guy in melee. If they get too close, refer to Thunderwave.

4) Magic Missle does not suck. With free basic attacks from a warlord, it's a decent damage attack that uses your primary attribute.

5) Cloud of Daggers does not suck. It, at worst, auto-kills a minion, and at best, does the most damage of all the at-wills.

6) Wizards require Int.... and.... um... maybe another attribute. Maybe Wisdom. Maybe Constitution. Maybe. But they don't NEED them to the level of any other class.

7) They can start with the equivalent armor of Plate Armor. 18 Int, +1 staff of defense, +1 Staff Fighting, +2 Leather Armor.

8) Did I mention Staff Of Defense?

You have awesome abilities. Spend less time complaining about their suck and more time not sucking at using them.

All of these.

And other wizard powers can be used to build the advantageous environment yourself. Push somebody into a Wall of Fire and they'll take the damage for entering it, and then possibly the damage for starting their turn it. That really adds up.

Push a flying creature into a flying stinking cloud and if he makes his save he falls prone and crashes into the ground

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

Wizards are okay - just wish you got an extra at-will per teir, but I could say that for all the classes.

I totally get this desire, I think it all the time, but you would be gimping humans AND eradicating the trade offs of choice. I totally wish my eladrin wizard had a 3rd at-will. Ray of frost has come in handy numerous times for slowing the big melee guy from reaching the party so easily and stopping key NPC's and monsters from fleeing. That said, every time I'm pressed by close attackers I long for thunderwave. Scorching burst is my bread and butter because I have astral fire as a feat and it gives me an endless amount of ranged burst attacks for getting 2-3 targets at a time. Even though every mage wants another at will or two it's not a great idea to give it to em'.

(wotc keep saying they want players to have more choice but they seem obsessed with limiting it. Having more options, through gaining more at-wills and being able to select from a number of encounters/dailies a limited number of times per encounter/day would give more choice, not make characters more 'powerful'. Personal gripe.)

It would make all wizards basically the same. you would always be able to switch out powers. You do have lots of choices and it's actually a good thing when you have difficulty deciding which power is best at any level. This means they're roughly equivalent and in making the choice you have to "sacrifice" some other benefit. Having more choices is not the same as having it all. You can retrain one power at any level so your pc can adapt and grow.

Or if they could add as many powers to their spell book as they could get their hands on and select which ones they could use that day (I don't want vancian back, but a little.)

this is not good for the game even if it's good for you.

Some spells need more 'control' especially the at-wills, and Thunderwave should move 1 + wis, not just wis. That way you would get to move them whatever your wis is, even if it was just 1 square. Secondary abilities should make spells work better, not just make them work at all. This goes for all powers for all classes (Special build feature bonuses not included.)

If you want to use thunderwave then put a 12 or more in wisdom. It's not a brutal requirement and wizards have a ton of flexibility on which way they choose to go with their powers and stats. I would guess that wizard is the only PHB1 class that all the at-wills are getting used with roughly equal frequency. I would also guess that there are successful wizards being played with three different secondary stats. How many classes can say that in 4e?

 

[Mercurius]

OK, it sounds like the general consensus, at least in this thread, is that wizards don't suck and all will become clear with a bit more playing time. I can trust and live with that.

As for my second point about multiple attacks, why exactly is this not possible? Or rather, why is it that all characters can only attack once, except perhaps for special encounter or daily powers? This is what I mean by 4ed having a heavily "gamist" tone: rules seemed to cater more towards game balance than towards realism (simulationism). For example, it is not realistic that an 18 DEX rogue with two daggers in hand and an 8 DEX wizard with a staff can both attack once per round. At the least it would seem that there should be a feat or something for the rogue to be allowed to attack twice if the second weapon is light.

Is the rogue wielding two weapons? From the sound of it, you guys (like a lot of us) didn't really bother to fully read the rules before playing, and he may still be taking full round attack actions (which no longer exist).

Exactly--we thought we'd learn as we go, which is fine by me. We're learning! He told me he read that rule in an ancient Dragon magazine and that he thought the rule would apply in this edition--he hasn't played since 1st or 2nd edition--but we both found that it doesn't, but both are having a hard time putting our heads around the fact that high DEX rogues can't attack twice.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Others, I am just tactical help, like the debuffing of Illusory Ambush or Grasping Shadows.

I think it reflects the concern that WotC didn't really know what to do with wizards that powers such as those (which are neat, flavourful, useful) didn't exist in the PHB and had to be introduced via Dragon (and thus are not available to many wizards)

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

Kite a guy in melee.

What does this mean?

4) Magic Missle does not suck. With free basic attacks from a warlord, it's a decent damage attack that uses your primary attribute.

It would be a good point, but the warlord gets 1, maybe 2 powers *ever* in the PHB which prompts a free basic attack. Not as useful as it sounds. The only real benefit is that bracers of the perfect shot can pump up your damage.

Spend less time complaining about their suck and more time not sucking at using them.

Don't be rude to people otherwise you'll get suspended.