Do You Enjoy The Rogues New Role?

But Large-scale damage is inefficient at higher levels because of increase hps everyone has (compare hps in earlier D&D's).

You need to use multiple of those damage spells vs one or two save or dies (they will fail one every now and then but less likely two unless something is qrong with your DCs)

Save or dies help save on spell slots.

I'm not deriding this thread with a diatribe on SoD's, but I'll leave it with this; if you can't kill a foe with spells like force orb, disintegrate, polar ray, or horrid wilting, please return your spellbook at your earliest convenience and proceed to take up weasel-farming.
 

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In combat, the thief had the potential to do some great one-shot damage to certain targets if the conditions were right. I wouldn't classify that as making the thief a consistent combat performer. The thief was never intended to be a strong combatant.This was all well and good because the system wasn't balanced around the round to round combat utility of each character.

What is this "great one-shot" damage you speak of? [Bold emphasis mine]

[sblock=D&D Rules Cyclopedia]Backstabbing: If a thief can sneak up on a victim, completely unnoticed, the thief may backstab—if he is using a one-handed melee weapon, he may strike at particularly vulnerable points of his target's body. (Though the ability is called "backstabbing," the weapon doesn't have to be a stabbing weapon. A thief can use this ability with a club, for example.)
When backstabbing, the thief gains a bonus of +4 on the attack roll; if the target is hit, the damage done is twice normal (roll the damage for the weapon, multiply the result by two, and then add any pertinent modifiers).
If the intended victim sees, hears, or is warned of the thief's approach, the thief's attack is not a backstab; it is an ordinary attack, doing the damage appropriate for the weapon used.
When no battle is in progress, a backstab attempt may require a Move Silently ability check. The DM will make all the necessary decisions on that matter[/sblock]
[sblock=AD&D 1e PHB & DMG]Back stabbing is the striking of a blow from behind, be it with club, dagger, or sword. The damage done per hit is twice normal for the weapon used per four experience levels of the thief, i.e. double damage at levels 1-4, triple at 5-8, quadruple at levels 9-12, and quintuple at levels 13-16. Note that striking by surprise from behind also increases the hit probability by 20% (+4 on the thief's "to hit" die roll).
Back Stabbing: Opponents aware of the thief will be able to negate the attack form. Certain creatures (otyughs, slimes, molds, etc.) either negate surprise or have no definable "back", thus negating this ability. [/sblock]
[sblock=AD&D 2e PHB]Backstab: Thieves are weak in toe-to-toe hacking matches, but they are masters of the knife in the back. When attacking someone by surprise and from behind, a thief can improve his chance to successfully hit (+4 modifier for rear attack and negate the target's shield and Dexterity bonuses) and greatly increase the amount of damage his blow causes.
To use this ability, the thief must be behind his victim and the victim must be unaware that the thief intends to attack him. If an enemy sees the thief, hears him approach from a blind side, or is warned by another, he is not caught unaware, and the backstab is handled like a normal attack (although bonuses for a rear attack still apply). Opponents in battle will often notice a thief trying to maneuver behind them--the first rule of fighting is to never turn your back on an enemy! However, someone who isn't expecting to be attacked (a friend or ally, perhaps) can be caught unaware even if he knows the thief is behind him.
The multiplier given in Table 30 [editors note=same as 1e PHB's multiplier table] applies to the amount of damage before modifiers for Strength or weapon bonuses are added. The weapon's standard damage is multiplied by the value given in Table 30. Then Strength and magical weapon bonuses are added.
Backstabbing does have limitations. First, the damage multiplier applies only to the first attack made by the thief, even if multiple attacks are possible. Once a blow is struck, the initial surprise effect is lost. Second, the thief cannot use it on every creature. The victim must be generally humanoid. Part of the skill comes from knowing just where to strike. A thief could backstab an ogre, but he wouldn't be able to do the same to a beholder. The victim must also have a definable back (which leaves out most slimes, jellies, oozes, and the like). Finally, the thief has to be able to reach a significant target area. To backstab a giant, the thief would have to be standing on a ledge or window balcony. Backstabbing him in the ankle just isn't going to be as effective.[/sblock]

So lets get this all straight:

Thief, 9th level, +1 longsword, 16 Str (+2 in basic, -/+1 in AD&D)

Basic: +4 to hit, 2d8+3 damage. (5-19, av dmg 12)
AD&D: +4 to hit, 4d8+2 damage. (6-34 av dmg 20)

Average damage from a fireball, 9th level caster: 9d6 (9-54, av dmg 31, save 1/2), affects multiple foes
Average damage from a flame strike, 9th level caster: 6d8 (6-48, av dmg 27, save 1/2) affects multiple foes
Average damage from a fighter: 18/01 str, specialized with +1 longsword: +3 to hit, 1d8+6, 2 attacks (if both hit: 2d8+12, 14-28, av dmg 21), usable every round.
 

Not really. 1E and Basic D&D thieves were not close to the fighter in
general combat ability. Take a look at the 1E "to-hit" tables for thieves. They lag
behind the fighter quite a bit. Another thing to consider is the exceptional strength
rules. A single classed thief couldn't roll on the % table even if he/she had an 18 STR.

I don't think anyone is disputing that the 4th/3rd edition Rogue is more skilled in combat than the old Thief class. The disconnect is when people start claiming the 4th edition Rogue is not a skill monkey or has less out of combat utility, which is bizarre.

The old Thief class had no out of combat special abilities except their percentage chance to hide in shadows, move silently, pick pocket, listen, climb walls, open locks, and disarm traps. I might have missed one. They could also use magic user scrolls at very high levels. There was no skill system, so use of these skills were restricted to the Thief, with some exceptions, (Rangers, Bards, ect)

The 3rd edition Rogue had 8 skill points per level and access to almost the entire skill list. Use Magic Device was made a skill to represent their old scroll-reading powers. Assuming a starting Intelligence of 14, (or 12 with human) a 3rd edition Rogue could be maxed out in Hide, Move Silently, Use Magic Device, Search, Sleight of Hand, Disarm, Open Locks, Climb, Tumble, and Listen.

This puts them on about the same level as the old edition theif in out of combat skills, although the skill system allowed them to configure their abilities more, to the point of dumping all their points into useless or suboptimal skills. This could occasionally cause conflict with other players who were expecting a trap monkey instead of a master chef and champion rope wrangler.

The only non-combat powers available to the 3rd edition Rogue were "Trap Sense" which was just a negative ability preventing other classes from dealing with certain types of traps, and a save bonus vs traps.

The 4th edition Rogue is required to take Stealth and Thievery, which covers the old skills of Hide, Move Silently, Pick Pockets, Open Locks, and Disarm traps. They can choose 4 other skills out of Acrobatics (Tumble) Athletics (jump, swim, climb) Bluff, Dungeoneering, Insight, Intimidate, Perception, and streetwise.

A 4th edition Rogue who ends up with Thievery, Stealth, Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception and Bluff effectively has roughly 14 skill points per level compared to the 3rd edition Rogue due to skill consolidation. They have more trained skills than any other 4th edition class released so far, and excellent synergy with Dex, Strength, and Charisma skills. (Strength vs Charisma depending on build) The 4th edition Rogue also has the largest number of skill based utilities then any other class, making them the best class in the game for using several skills.

To put in bluntly, there is no meaningful out of combat ability belonging to the old edition Thief or 3rd edition Rogue that cannot be peformed by the 4th edition Rogue except the ability to use scrolls. (Which can be somewhat duplicated by using Ritual Scrolls or learning ritual magic)
 

You know...looking at my old character sheets (I love enworld for making me look up these old stuff...) I don't actually HAVE a single classed thief.

Did anyone actually play a single classed thief?

EDIT: Single classed thief in pre 3e.

To me, it seemed like I had a lot of multiclass thieves...
 
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You know...looking at my old character sheets (I love enworld for making me look up these old stuff...) I don't actually HAVE a single classed thief.

Did anyone actually play a single classed thief?

Namesake. Elf Thief/Rogue.

4th-16th level (2e)
16-20th (3e)
(21+ in 4e? Unsure if we might not just restart at a lower level though)

He was the second character I ever made (dwarf was the first. Note that was his race and class) so I didn't know single-classed thieves had, ah, limitations. Esp with a party mostly full of mages and fighters.
 


You know...looking at my old character sheets (I love enworld for making me look up these old stuff...) I don't actually HAVE a single classed thief.

Did anyone actually play a single classed thief?

With or without the Swashbuckler kit?

Broken splatbooks aside, I may have built a halfling bow using thief at some point. I think I ditched him after one session though. Oh, and Kender. I'm pretty sure I had at least one single classed kender thief, but those characters tended to die a lot. :p

Tons of multiclass thieves though, sometimes more than one per group.

Honestly, there was no real incentive to build a single classed thief. Multiclass Thief/anything was a great combo, and human thieves had zero advantages over demihumans.
 

I'm curious.

To those that played pre 3e thieves,

Why single classed? You could multiclass with thief for any race and the xp scale meant that you were only a level or two behing your single classed compatriot....

EDIT : No cheating with broken kits...Many of those kits kind of eliminated some of the drawbacks for thieves...
 

What is this "great one-shot" damage you speak of? [Bold emphasis mine]


So lets get this all straight:

Thief, 9th level, +1 longsword, 16 Str (+2 in basic, -/+1 in AD&D)

Basic: +4 to hit, 2d8+3 damage. (5-19, av dmg 12)
AD&D: +4 to hit, 4d8+2 damage. (6-34 av dmg 20)

Average damage from a fireball, 9th level caster: 9d6 (9-54, av dmg 31, save 1/2), affects multiple foes
Average damage from a flame strike, 9th level caster: 6d8 (6-48, av dmg 27, save 1/2) affects multiple foes
Average damage from a fighter: 18/01 str, specialized with +1 longsword: +3 to hit, 1d8+6, 2 attacks (if both hit: 2d8+12, 14-28, av dmg 21), usable every round.

Bold emphasis mine. In a non-bloated (UA) 1E game, 20 damage from a weapon shot is pretty darn good for an average. Thats almost 1/4 of the the hit points for an ancient red dragon! Its easy to forget these days when the typical kobold grunt has more than 20 hit points just how much damage that was.

Also: an average level 9 thief had 31.5 hit points. This attack could possibly kill a character of equal class and level. I wouldn't call that weak.
 
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I'm curious.

To those that played pre 3e thieves,

Why single classed? You could multiclass with thief for any race and the xp scale meant that you were only a level or two behing your single classed compatriot....

EDIT : No cheating with broken kits...Many of those kits kind of eliminated some of the drawbacks for thieves...

We lost thief after thief. At 4th level, we needed another one. No way would a 1st level thief make it in a 4th level adventure... we needed a 4th level thief. Now, as everyone knows, it is fundamentally impossible to create a character at higher than 1st level. The laws of nature forbid it!

So we made 26 1st level thieves, and sent them against the Keep on the Borderlands (the Keep, not the caves) on a Darwinian Crime Spree (tm). They had to keep robbing and murdering until all but one got caught! That one had enough xp to join the group.

And after that we always had a single classed thief.

PS
 

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