Do You Enjoy The Rogues New Role?

[Mouseferatu]

Problem with that arguement is that the skill system in 4e is broken no? Skill challenges and other actual uses of skills have been sub part.

No. Have there been problems with skill challenges? Absolutely. But they're problems that, IME, can be fixed with tweaks, not flaws that run so deep that they render the whole system nonfunctional.

It's a good thing that the rogue is useful in combat because that skill monkey role isn't really supported by the skill system in 4e.

You know, I keep seeing this. And I agree, the skill challenge system does need some tweaks, as I just said.

But it's still more hard rules focus on out-of-combat skill use than any prior edition included in its core rules and/or early supplements. So if there's a problem here, it's certainly not that 4E did something to make rogues or other skill-users less effective outside of combat. At worst, it didn't go far enough to make them more useful.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

There are some that might say that 4e already did this for you (ok, failed my Will save)

Nah, its okay. I know someone whould write that

Problem with that arguement is that the skill system in 4e is broken no? Skill challenges and other actual uses of skills have been sub part.

So ENworld keeps telling me. I admit, i am ashamed sometimes that i cannot reproduce these problems in my campaign. I even use skill challenges all the time to great effect. I really feel left behind.

 

[Jack99]

There are some that might say that 4e already did this for you (ok, failed my Will save)

Pretty funny!

So ENworld keeps telling me. I admit, i am ashamed sometimes that i cannot reproduce these problems in my campaign. I even use skill challenges all the time to great effect. I really feel left behind.

Don't worry, I can't reproduce them either. Maybe we can make a club.

Fair enough, I consider those as balance for the fact the rogue averages around twice the damage of the ftr in our group.

Keyword is your group. But some fighter builds do a lot of damage

 

[JoeGKushner]

Nah, its okay. I know someone whould write that



So ENworld keeps telling me. I admit, i am ashamed sometimes that i cannot reproduce these problems in my campaign. I even use skill challenges all the time to great effect. I really feel left behind.

It's solid that people can use it as written. However, WoTC themsleves have been messing with itonline for months now and Mike Mearls has posted on his own blog several alternative uses. It's not something that's just in people's heads eh?

 

[AllisterH]

It's solid that people can use it as written. However, WoTC themsleves have been messing with itonline for months now and Mike Mearls has posted on his own blog several alternative uses. It's not something that's just in people's heads eh?

Keep in mind, Skill Challenges don't apply to everything...Don't see what's wrong with the skill system for climbing a wall or jimmying a lock (in fact, I think the base skill system is superior to any other editions version -1e/2e % chance, and 3E's skill point system)

 

[Aus_Snow]

That's true of every edition.

No.

 

[Remathilis]

No.

Well, that was informative. Anything you want to add to that?

 

[Aus_Snow]

Well, that was informative. Anything you want to add to that?

My first post in the thread, perhaps. But, that's already posted. So there's no point simply adding it again.

But I can sum it up: in the first (that is, original or 'O') D&D, there were no Thieves, Rogues, whatever. So the accuracy of the statement was, well, lacking.

Doesn't particularly bother me; I'm no grognard / edition warrior, really. It's just funny, when anyone talks about how things have always been, or always not been, and so forth. . . and they don't even know how they began. Or ignore it, perhaps. I'm not claiming to know anyone's motives, if any, either.

But yeah, it was probably unnecessary. Oh well.

 

[Mallus]

Problem with that arguement is that the skill system in 4e is broken no? Skill challenges and other actual uses of skills have been sub part.

There could certainly by more and better advice regarding skill uses in 4e (and Skill Challenges could be fixed, again...), but broken? Not for my group. The skill system in 4e is as good at the one in 3e, better, actually, since it has far less competition from spells.

It's a good thing that the rogue is useful in combat because that skill monkey role isn't really supported by the skill system in 4e.

How isn't the skill monkey role supported in 4e? Rogues get more skills, ergo they're the monkey.

However, I'm not sure that's even a good idea. I like that every class is now good in a fight, which is to say I like that the rules acknowledge how most people actually play the game.

IMNSHO, what needs to happen next is giving vanilla fighters better out-of-combat options, things like fighter-specific uses of their Trained skills that reflect their archetype.

Now that every class is good in a fight, every class needs to good out of one as well.

 

[Remathilis]

My first post in the thread, perhaps. But, that's already posted. So there's no point simply adding it again.

But I can sum it up: in the first (that is, original or 'O') D&D, there were no Thieves, Rogues, whatever. So the accuracy of the statement was, well, lacking.

Doesn't particularly bother me; I'm no grognard / edition warrior, really. It's just funny, when anyone talks about how things have always been, or always not been, and so forth. . . and they don't even know how they began. Or ignore it, perhaps. I'm not claiming to know anyone's motives, if any, either.

But yeah, it was probably unnecessary. Oh well.

I think Doug meant "since the class's introduction in Greyhawk". which was one year later. Since then, its been the only class consistently added to the original three in every edition of D&D (at least in its classically recognizable form; paladin and druid have shown up in some form or another in them all as well).

However, since most players cut their teeth on the Basic Sets (in their various incarnations) or some version of AD&D, thief has always been there. So unless you got one of those box sets in 1974 (or are Dialgo) D&D "has always had thieves" is as close to the truth as you can come.

Now, the question is, has D&D thieves always been fighters in gimp costumes?