Do You Feel The Cleric Is Balanced?

[Quinn]

I've just got to pick you up here - fireball and lightning bolt are hardly the powerful spells which they used to be. 5d6 damage in an area effect is perhaps OK for clearing out a lot of weak, CR1 or CR2 creatures (but then the fighter/barb/etc could do that with great cleave) but against foes of equivalent CR it is vastly underpowered compared to the old days... everything gets CON bonuses now, and that really ups the hps of characters and monsters.

Fireball may be an iconic sacred cow, but it isn't a tremendously effective spell, merely useful in some circumstances.

Furthermore, the clerical disparity in spells starts to become most significant from 10th level (5th level spells) onwards

They are weaker compared to an old 2nd edition fireball or lightning bolt, yet they're still the best available area effect spells at that level. Cleave occurs regularly, but monsters don't always line up nicely for Great Cleave. In addition, fighters have to be in harm's way to have a chance to attempt this, so I don't think they really compare. At later levels, I think both wizards and clerics have access to real showstopping power.

 

[Quinn]

It is an extra power that in fact makes the cleric more powerful, not some wierd limit because the role of healer is generally unliked. Sure in a team work environment people fall into roles and contirbute in that manner, and if the healing role is the most effective at the time the cleric can choose to follow that role for a time period. Its a nice benefit not a limit. And people complaining about this make about as much sense as the fighter complaining that his High HP, bab and combat skill make him fit the role of the meat shield. Again having benefits that you can choose to utilize is not a limit, it is a benefit. It doesn't matter if it makes you suited to a certain role, you still just got bonus abilities.

While I see your point, in my experience it doesn't bear itself out when players are rolling up characters.

 

[LuYangShih]

Yes, they are overpowered. Clerics can fill the role of almost any other class, and they have several extremely potent abilities of their own. In fact, they make better combat characters than the warrior classes in the game. When Clerics have their buffs up, they are greatly superior to Fighters in regular combat. When they don't, they are almost as good.

And people always act like Dispel is the be all end all that will somehow balance this fact. I don't know about you, but not every creature and NPC in my game is capable of dispelling magic. In most fights, Clerics will have all of their buffs up, and in the other fights, they'll have at least half of them still up, more if the DM doesn't metagame and deliberately target the Cleric with a dispel.

 

[Ogre Mage]

Clerics

It seems that there are some campaigns out there where players are running around with multiple cure wands and a sack full of potions? I have not played in those campaigns. In my games, the cleric's curing magic is vital, not an afterthought.

And in games where wands and potions are not so freely available, then the cleric's healing ability IS a balancing factor, not crap like some people have suggested. In the games I have played in, it is not uncommon for PCs to be reduced to less than 10% of hit points or negative HPs in the middle of combat. Then the clerics abilities become absolutely necessary, not a luxury. I can think of several sessions where I burned through all my cleric's spells, and nearly all of them spontaneous cures. So much for all those nifty buff spells. I suppose you could say I could have just used those cures for something else. I'm sure my fellow players would be real pleased with me if they had to roll up new characters when I could have saved them.

Finally from a metagaming standpoint, the role of healer is necessary but BORING. Who wants to be sitting around passively curing everyone all the time? Most players understandibly prefer roles which are proactive. IMO, if you are in a campaign where the cleric hardly ever has to worry about using a spontaneous cure, something is wrong.

When Clerics have their buffs up, they are greatly superior to Fighters in regular combat. When they don't, they are almost as good.

Not true. When clerics DON'T have their buff spells up they are not anywhere close to a fighter in melee. Have you forgotten the fighter's more HP, martial WP, weapon specialization, better BAB and hordes of extra feats?

 

[LuYangShih]

Feats are nice, but not neccessary. The HP difference is minimal. The Fighter has an average of 20 HP more at 20th level. That's hardly going to make a major difference. The martial profiency is irrelevant if you take the War domain or are one of the races that has free weapon profiencies. What it really comes down to is BAB and armor profiencies.

The Cleric equals the Fighters armor profiencies, and as such can have just as high an AC as his Fighter compatriot. He's 5 BAB points behind the Fighter at 20th level, which is significant, but that's why the Cleric is almost as good, not as good.

And it's not like it is very hard to get wands or potions of healing if you are playing in a standard world, by the book. They are present in almost every civilized location bigger than your average hermit dwelling. Not to mention the fact that you may have more than one Cleric in the party, which greatly cuts down on the "burden" of playing a Cleric.

And finally, Clerics do not have to heal. If that is the only balancing factor they have, you can throw that out of the window right now, since many Clerics simply choose not to do so in favor of dealing damage instead of healing it. It's like Numion said, it's better for the Cleric to be dealing out 50 points of damage in one round, instead of healing 15.

And Clerics are more than capable of doing that much damage. Just because you have healing capability doesn't mean you are forced to make that your primary role. Just like Fighters don't always have to be tanks, Rogues don't always have to be mobile trap detectors, and Wizards don't always have to be mobile artillery platforms.

The option is there if you want to take it, but that is a bonus, not a disadvantage. The Cleric is clearly overpowered when played by a min-maxer capable of bringing the Clerics full potential to bear. They either need to get a reduction in fighting capability, or a reduction in spell capability. Or both.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Feats, however, are always on. While Buff Spells take a lot of time to get up and running and are on a clock from the get go. In the games I've been in speed is a very critical factor in combat.

Particularly in the high levels. You want to close with that magic user very very quickly.

wands of cure are just as crippling as actual cure spells since it still takes an action for the cleric to bring them on-line.

Besides, the party that is willing to spend the money to buy wands for every eventuality that a cleric's healing and protection spells cover is pretty rare.

 

[Ogre Mage]

hmmmmm

well ... all I can say is I completely disagree with almost everthing you've said here.

 

[rounser]

If the Druid and Bard had their healing abilities bumped up to compete with the Cleric, not only would they get played more, but some of the healing load would be taken off that class. I think healing fits both the Druid and Bard archetypes very well, too.

I mean, we've got four character classes which are strong fighters, and exactly one which is a strong healer. Anyone see the problem here?

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Re: hmmmmm

well ... all I can say is I completely disagree with almost everthing you've said here.

Fair enough, every game and party is different.

Though I do shudder at the thought of a game in which buff spells' durations and casting times aren't accounted for.

 

[Gez]

If the Druid and Bard had their healing abilities bumped up to compete with the Cleric, not only would they get played more, but some of the healing load would be taken off that class. I think healing fits both the Druid and Bard archetypes very well, too.

I mean, we've got four character classes which are strong fighters, and exactly one which is a strong healer. Anyone see the problem here?

That's basically what I said in my first post in that thread. A solution may be to adopt the OA classes into play -- the shaman and shugenja are strong healers too. Another may be to put the cure wounds spells on the same level for clerics and druids, and to include them on the sorcerer&wizard's one. After all, they were there once upon a time -- back when necromancy was channeling of negative and positive energies, you had these so-called "white necromancers" that cold heal people.