D&D 5E Do you find alignment useful in any way?

Do you find alignment useful in any way?


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Vaalingrade

Legend
I'm not a fan of the insulting insinuations that those who disagree with alignment simply don't understand it properly. It dismisses the possibility that people can understand alignment while also holding critical opinions about it.
I mean that's the core of most alignment arguments. That everything will be fine if we all agree to play and view them the way I tell you. Now shut up an accept it when I the Great and Powerful DM tell you you're evil for offending my personal morals.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sure you want to throw around Phil 101 terms when you're rocking the appeal to popularity?
It's not an appeal to popularity unless I leave it at, "It's right, because it's popular." Since my argument is about it being useful, including the fact that the majority of us find alignment useful is not an appeal to popularity. My argument is about its usefulness, not about simple numbers. The numbers are just additive at that point.
The herm alignment does is in the culture and attitude it enforces, especially othering and tarring entire peoples as 'evil'.
No peoples are tarred anything in an imaginary game where no real world peoples are being mirrored. Here's the thing. It has been proven that things like violence in games don't make people more violent. Same with things like good and evil. In fact, good and evil are going to live on in D&D whether alignment is there or not.
Let us never forget the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds. And you can dismiss them as being from a previous edition, but their legacy lives on in thousands of games via the DM fiat happy nature of 5e.
If their legacy lives on, then removing alignment won't change anything. I'd also like to see your factual numbers proving that there are "thousands of games where those books live on in 5e via DM fiat" where you also have factual numbers on any harm done by it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I mean that's the core of most alignment arguments. That everything will be fine if we all agree to play and view them the way I tell you. Now shut up an accept it when I the Great and Powerful DM tell you you're evil for offending my personal morals.
Nobody is telling you to play it their way. We are telling you not to use it if YOU find it useless, not to take it away from those of us who do find it useful and are not now, nor ever will be harmed by it. You don't get to make it useless to us, nor do you to make it "harm" us.
 

Argument. I said argument. Stop with the performative rhetoric.

Sure you want to throw around Phil 101 terms when you're rocking the appeal to popularity?

The herm alignment does is in the culture and attitude it enforces, especially othering and tarring entire peoples as 'evil'. Let us never forget the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds. And you can dismiss them as being from a previous edition, but their legacy lives on in thousands of games via the DM fiat happy nature of 5e.
It describes “fictional” peoples (specifically creatures that are made manifest from these meta physical aspects).

It enforces no culture or attitude and that argument shows a complete disrespect and ignorance of the mythical and literary roots and their context. This is the enforced protection being described. It’s demeaning, patronising, disempowers those you seek to “protect” and stifles expression in this medium. Stop it.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
The immediate defense of these depictions as being only against 'fictional' people we're finding half an excuse to abuse and murder is exactly the culture I'm talking about.

Speaking as a personal recipient of the 'Mark of Ham' crap, I'll say I might have a bit more grounding in how stories have power to influence thinking.
 

The immediate defense of these depictions as being only against 'fictional' people we're finding half an excuse to abuse and murder is exactly the culture I'm talking about.
And your warped instance that it’s anything other is the culture I’m talking about. It’s the exact same language of control and ignorance the satanic panic used. Cut it out.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The immediate defense of these depictions as being only against 'fictional' people we're finding half an excuse to abuse and murder is exactly the culture I'm talking about.
No. That's just your circular logic. It's harmful because I say it is, and if you can't see it, well than that just proves that it's harmful.

People can and do have valid opinions that differ from yours and our disagreement doesn't "prove you right."
Speaking as a personal recipient of the 'Mark of Ham' crap, I'll say I might have a bit more grounding in how stories have power to influence thinking.
As someone who is Jewish and has had(and is still happening worldwide) had his people attacked and discriminated against, also involving stories, I disagree with you on D&D. Stories in the real world about real world people are VERY different that imaginary things involving imaginary peoples.
 

Oofta

Legend
The immediate defense of these depictions as being only against 'fictional' people we're finding half an excuse to abuse and murder is exactly the culture I'm talking about.

Speaking as a personal recipient of the 'Mark of Ham' crap, I'll say I might have a bit more grounding in how stories have power to influence thinking.
If you have bad guys, you are going to say bad things about them. We are limited by what we can imagine, what our language can describe. It doesn't matter how I organize a group of "bad" creatures, if the creatures are intelligent someone will make an association between that group and real world people are cultures. If I say that blargs (whether a specific species, religious group or political organization) are violent, dangerous and unpredictable it will eventually be associated to some real world group.

D&D is a big target. People get eyes if they can create a controversy. Some things should be changed, but as long as you have heroes versus villains as a popular option, someone somewhere will write a blog about how the anti-heroes represent [insert group here] and it's awful. If you take away the heroes versus villains option, you take away a core part of the game.
 

By 1e-3e alignment, why would a CE Red Dragon be a better fit long term in a strongly LE fire city than an also fire breathing/immune LG gold dragon? (It feels to me like they might both serve best as a prisoner, in an arena, or guarding something out of the way like Shelob. If nothing else, the gold dragon might be able to bring itself to follow the rules and play the game enough to be an ambassador there. The red dragon feels like it would continually get in trouble until something had to be done).
Exactly! It definitely deels like the “Good-Evil” axis is supposed to be “stronger” than the “Law-Chaos” axis, although this tends not be explicitly called out in the materials.

Otherwise, you would see more AP about Chaotic Good rebels and Chaotic evil demons coming together to defeat oppression by the forces of law. 😃
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Mod Note:

Folks, some of you look like you are getting heated. Step away, take a breath. Don't say things you might regret - like things that make the discussion personal.
 

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