Do you kill PCs?
- Thread starter Shalewind
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LostSoul
Adventurer
Re: Allowing raise spells
Carry this idea out a little further. Who is the poor farmer going to worship - a supposed "Good" God/Goddess, who won't Raise his poor wife who was slaughtered by a roaming ogre, or the "Evil" God/Goddess who will? Since the act of Raising the farmer's wife, with the condition of converting to the faith, will gain new followers, this is profit and power. Soon the word gets around that the "Evil" God/Goddess will Raise your departed beloved, and the "Good" God/Goddess won't.
I think that people's attitudes will start to shift towards the "Evil" faith, giving them a considerable amount of power.
Vexed said:
Carry this idea out a little further. Who is the poor farmer going to worship - a supposed "Good" God/Goddess, who won't Raise his poor wife who was slaughtered by a roaming ogre, or the "Evil" God/Goddess who will? Since the act of Raising the farmer's wife, with the condition of converting to the faith, will gain new followers, this is profit and power. Soon the word gets around that the "Evil" God/Goddess will Raise your departed beloved, and the "Good" God/Goddess won't.
I think that people's attitudes will start to shift towards the "Evil" faith, giving them a considerable amount of power.
LostSoul
Adventurer
I don't have much, if any, healing magic in my game. So the PCs don't have access to Raise Dead, Ressurection, or even a Cure Disease.
Recently, one of the PCs was turned to stone by the eye beam from a Retriever. Without any Clerics to turn to, it was the same as death for a very cool character. I decided that Dispel Magic, cast in the same round or following round, could restore the PC.
I think I'm going to use that ruling with all "insta-death" spells, so I can use them without screwing over the PCs.
Recently, one of the PCs was turned to stone by the eye beam from a Retriever. Without any Clerics to turn to, it was the same as death for a very cool character. I decided that Dispel Magic, cast in the same round or following round, could restore the PC.
I think I'm going to use that ruling with all "insta-death" spells, so I can use them without screwing over the PCs.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
I ran a campaign for about a year and a half which featured a number of deaths including all of the original PCs. Raise dead type magic was theoretically available but was only used once in the campaign. . . and that was for an NPC. (I'd intended for the scroll to be a backup in case a party member died but the party used it on an NPC who just died).
A number of effects:
1. The death of long-running characters created new story arcs. One of the characters was a foreigner (he was the last one to die)and the last month and a half of gaming ended up being the story of how his body (along with his magic sword and share of the loot from the last adventure) got returned to his family.
2. The original characters were created when the players were new to 3e. The death of the characters gave the players a chance to correct mistakes they made (note to all future players--a fighter/wizard multiclass with an 8 constitution is not an example of optimal character construction).
Then again, my campaign was not really very character driven (although I tried, believe me, I tried). The campaign had a fairly high character turnover rate as well. (People joining for a month or two at a time). Permanent character death might well be more disruptive in a more character driven game.
A number of effects:
1. The death of long-running characters created new story arcs. One of the characters was a foreigner (he was the last one to die)and the last month and a half of gaming ended up being the story of how his body (along with his magic sword and share of the loot from the last adventure) got returned to his family.
2. The original characters were created when the players were new to 3e. The death of the characters gave the players a chance to correct mistakes they made (note to all future players--a fighter/wizard multiclass with an 8 constitution is not an example of optimal character construction).
Then again, my campaign was not really very character driven (although I tried, believe me, I tried). The campaign had a fairly high character turnover rate as well. (People joining for a month or two at a time). Permanent character death might well be more disruptive in a more character driven game.
jlhorner1974
First Post
Are there any other ideas out there for this?
I hate to kill PCs also, but I believe that there has to be a threat there or there is too much security and recklessness. Powerful monsters, deadly spells, and treacherous traps shouldn't be a minor inconvenience, they should instill fear! By the same token, I don't think the PCs should be paranoid that they will die all the time either.
I do want to use something of a "hero point" or "fate point" system to help prevent deaths in the first place -- but I don't want to cringe every time a monster uses disintegrate on a PC either. I want death to happen occasionally -- just enough to keep the PCs on their toes.
I don't like the "lose a level" mechanic, although it is effective as a penalty. I think it is frustrating and doesn't make logical sense. Suddenly my monk lost his spell resistance just because he died? And adjusting your character sheet to revert to a lower level is a pain.
I also want to run a more long term campaign, so I am not super keen on rolling new characters unless the PC really wants to try something new.
Someone posted a mechanic where you gain an XP "debt" of about 500 XP per level and the debt must be paid before you can level up, and you gain a negative level until the debt is paid. I like this better, but it hardly seems much worse than a temporary energy drain, and two unlucky deaths in a row could result in a pretty uneven party.
I also thought about raising/resurrection spells giving a temporary -2 CON penalty that cannot be removed by any magic means. Only time. If a character dies several ties in a row, this would be particularly painful.
Maybe the answer is just to limit the access to the spells or the material components. Maybe the material component should be an offering to the god (gold, gems, magical item) worth at least 250 gp or 500 gp per level of the deceased? This would be effective for a high level party, but a 1st or 2nd level party could have a rough time scraping up the cash.
What method do you think provides enough of a penalty to discourage carelessness about death without being too harsh and inconvenient?
I hate to kill PCs also, but I believe that there has to be a threat there or there is too much security and recklessness. Powerful monsters, deadly spells, and treacherous traps shouldn't be a minor inconvenience, they should instill fear! By the same token, I don't think the PCs should be paranoid that they will die all the time either.
I do want to use something of a "hero point" or "fate point" system to help prevent deaths in the first place -- but I don't want to cringe every time a monster uses disintegrate on a PC either. I want death to happen occasionally -- just enough to keep the PCs on their toes.
I don't like the "lose a level" mechanic, although it is effective as a penalty. I think it is frustrating and doesn't make logical sense. Suddenly my monk lost his spell resistance just because he died? And adjusting your character sheet to revert to a lower level is a pain.
I also want to run a more long term campaign, so I am not super keen on rolling new characters unless the PC really wants to try something new.
Someone posted a mechanic where you gain an XP "debt" of about 500 XP per level and the debt must be paid before you can level up, and you gain a negative level until the debt is paid. I like this better, but it hardly seems much worse than a temporary energy drain, and two unlucky deaths in a row could result in a pretty uneven party.
I also thought about raising/resurrection spells giving a temporary -2 CON penalty that cannot be removed by any magic means. Only time. If a character dies several ties in a row, this would be particularly painful.
Maybe the answer is just to limit the access to the spells or the material components. Maybe the material component should be an offering to the god (gold, gems, magical item) worth at least 250 gp or 500 gp per level of the deceased? This would be effective for a high level party, but a 1st or 2nd level party could have a rough time scraping up the cash.
What method do you think provides enough of a penalty to discourage carelessness about death without being too harsh and inconvenient?
Timothy
First Post
I've got a simular problem. I am running the City of the Spider Queen adventure with my group, and I always roll in the open (which my players appreciate) sometimes I will cheat, stating that I am cheating and that it is my privilige as a DM.
My players die a lot (1 death every session). I have let the level up now, because the guideline for thye adventure is not right IMO, because it is ment for 10th level char and the average EL is 11-12.
When somebody dies, he has to conc=vince a daeity to allow a true ressurection (can be done via a commune spell). When this doesn't work, the character is raised, and becomes a level lower, so his power decreases and he is likely to bhe killed again, because he can't face the monsters.
So basicly, What I am looking for is a penalty that does not increase the power level of a character, but does act as a penalty to discourage dieing?
My players die a lot (1 death every session). I have let the level up now, because the guideline for thye adventure is not right IMO, because it is ment for 10th level char and the average EL is 11-12.
When somebody dies, he has to conc=vince a daeity to allow a true ressurection (can be done via a commune spell). When this doesn't work, the character is raised, and becomes a level lower, so his power decreases and he is likely to bhe killed again, because he can't face the monsters.
So basicly, What I am looking for is a penalty that does not increase the power level of a character, but does act as a penalty to discourage dieing?
jlhorner1974
First Post
I copied this from the "Asheron's Call" thread, where the original poster had a great idea dervied from the Asheron's Call game:
Here was my adaptation of his mechanic:
When a character dies, the appropriate spell must still be cast (raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection) and the appropriate costs/offering must be made (in gold, gems, magic items, whatever). The spell would be as scarce and as costly as the DM wishes.
When the character is returned from the dead, he or she gains The character gets a "penalty" with an XP "debt". XP gained during this time still leads toward advancement, but also reduces the debt at the same time. When the debt reaches 0, the penalty is removed. The penalty cannot be negated in any way while a debt exists (although perhaps a wish or miracle could allow the recipient to ignore the effects of the penalty for a short time). If a character dies several times, a separate debt is kept for each, and each is paid for one at a time, with the oldest debt always paid first.
For a default penalty, I would recommend negative levels. Reason? The mechanic is already there in the game and it's easy to use, and it makes sense because dying is not completely unlike being drained of life force. Probably 1 negative level would be enough, 2 or more negative levels if your players need a stonger incentive under this system.
As for the debt, you could use a certain value based on level, or you could have the raise dead assign a larger "debt" then true resurrection since the magic is less powerful. Probably a range of anywhere from 100 XP per level to 1000 XP per level would be reasonable. As a starting point, maybe have True Resurrection use 200 XP * level, Resurrection use 400 XP * level and Raise Dead 600 XP * level.
The DM can adjust the "penalty" to be as severe as desired, and have the "debt" be as large as necessary to provide a real penalty for death without wrecking advancement and having party members at greatly unequal levels.
The DM can make debts cumulative. For example, for every death after the first the debt increases cumulatively by 50 XP * level. Example: A 10th level character dies 4 times on an adventure and is resurrected using the resurrection spell each time. The first debt would be 4000 XP, the next 4500 XP, then 5000 XP, and then 5500 XP. The cumulative penalty can be reset to 0 (the normal value) at level up, or after two levels up, or even by completing a quest.
If a player gets too far in the hole, the DM may allow the player to create a new character instead, but it should start at least a level below the old character to provent abuse this way.
The more I think about this, the more I like it. And the DM can customize it to his or her wishes.
What do you think?
Here was my adaptation of his mechanic:
When a character dies, the appropriate spell must still be cast (raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection) and the appropriate costs/offering must be made (in gold, gems, magic items, whatever). The spell would be as scarce and as costly as the DM wishes.
When the character is returned from the dead, he or she gains The character gets a "penalty" with an XP "debt". XP gained during this time still leads toward advancement, but also reduces the debt at the same time. When the debt reaches 0, the penalty is removed. The penalty cannot be negated in any way while a debt exists (although perhaps a wish or miracle could allow the recipient to ignore the effects of the penalty for a short time). If a character dies several times, a separate debt is kept for each, and each is paid for one at a time, with the oldest debt always paid first.
For a default penalty, I would recommend negative levels. Reason? The mechanic is already there in the game and it's easy to use, and it makes sense because dying is not completely unlike being drained of life force. Probably 1 negative level would be enough, 2 or more negative levels if your players need a stonger incentive under this system.
As for the debt, you could use a certain value based on level, or you could have the raise dead assign a larger "debt" then true resurrection since the magic is less powerful. Probably a range of anywhere from 100 XP per level to 1000 XP per level would be reasonable. As a starting point, maybe have True Resurrection use 200 XP * level, Resurrection use 400 XP * level and Raise Dead 600 XP * level.
The DM can adjust the "penalty" to be as severe as desired, and have the "debt" be as large as necessary to provide a real penalty for death without wrecking advancement and having party members at greatly unequal levels.
The DM can make debts cumulative. For example, for every death after the first the debt increases cumulatively by 50 XP * level. Example: A 10th level character dies 4 times on an adventure and is resurrected using the resurrection spell each time. The first debt would be 4000 XP, the next 4500 XP, then 5000 XP, and then 5500 XP. The cumulative penalty can be reset to 0 (the normal value) at level up, or after two levels up, or even by completing a quest.
If a player gets too far in the hole, the DM may allow the player to create a new character instead, but it should start at least a level below the old character to provent abuse this way.
The more I think about this, the more I like it. And the DM can customize it to his or her wishes.
What do you think?
bloodymage
House Ruler
A Lesson in Courage!
Just couldn't resist that, John, tee-hee!
Ummm...or maybe you just don't have big enough berries?John Smallberries said:
Just couldn't resist that, John, tee-hee!
PalladiumMan
First Post
tburdett said:I'm DM'ing a game, not writing a book. PC's die and, if they can afford it, are brought back to life. That's the way that the game works.
We have, on average, one death every other week. We've had two near TPK, and one TPK. The near TPK's were both caused by insufficient planning before a major battle. The TPK was caused by a Symbol of Discord. The rogue is much less impulsive now.
Fortunately, they were in the middle of a large city when this happened and their henchmen were able to get them to a Cleric who was willing to Raise their Cleric.
Notice, I said Raise, not True Res. The player agreed that, under the circumstances, is what the henchmen would do. The PC's didn't have any wealth (gems or coins) with them when they died and the lowly henchmen didn't feel that they had the authority to sell magic items.
If a PC can't afford it, then the rest of the party has to decide whether or not to foot the bill. That bill can be cash money up front, a quest, or whatever. The going rate for a True Res in my campaign is currently around 12000gp. That includes the gem.
Not all players want to have their character raised from the dead. It is standard practice in our game for the PC's to ask each other if they wish to be returned to life if they fall in battle.
Currently, we have 2 players out of 6 who routinely don't want their characters returned to life. These 2 are new players who enjoy playing a wide variety of characters and don't mind it when they die. One of them seems extremely happy with his current character and may change his mind about being brought back in the near future.
Another downside to dying is the fact that enemies like to pick over your corpse if all of your companions are busy or distracted during combat. Nothing scares a high level PC more than losing a choice magic item. Well, I take that back. Nothing scares a high level PC more than Mordenkainens Disjunction. Losing a few items is almost as bad.
After two years of weekly gaming sessions my players are just now hitting the 18th - 20th level range. All of them have developed a healthy fear of death. It hides behind every door, every bush, in every tree and shadow. Death knows where they live and where they sleep. Death has become their constant companion.
In closing I'd like to say that the availability of life restoring magic has not, in any way, lessened our enjoyment of the game.
This is the stupidest thing Ive ever read. You must really get your rocks off this way
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