Do you let your players...?

[Mathew_Freeman]

Funnily enough, I was just about to mention that my DM makes us make spellcraft checks to avoid catching enemies in friendly fire, if we're putting fireballs or flame strikes to catch enemies in melee. I don't know how he sets the DC's (he's never told us) but with most of the group having maxed out Spellcraft ranks anyway, it doesn't seem to be a problem, and makes us use spellcraft and value it a bit more.

 

[mystraschosen]

Now that is certainly a great idea Tallarn........

 

[Murrdox]

I could see perhaps coming up with something where you place area effect spells like grenade-like weapons... they have a chance to deviate slightly in terms of direction or distance. I don't think I'd ever give a player the chace to be more than 5' off though...

I'm not sure what kind of a check would be appropriate to try and hit dead-on center. Spellcraft seems as good as any.

 

[hong]

I could see perhaps coming up with something where you place area effect spells like grenade-like weapons... they have a chance to deviate slightly in terms of direction or distance. I don't think I'd ever give a player the chace to be more than 5' off though...

I'm not sure what kind of a check would be appropriate to try and hit dead-on center. Spellcraft seems as good as any.

If you're trying to aim a ranged effect, then a ranged touch attack seems the obvious choice.

 

[WizarDru]

Re: Re: Do you let your players...?

One thing I've realized from playing and DM'ing in numerous Neverwinter Nights on-line campaigns: It is far too easy to inadvertently catch your comrades along with your opponents in your area effect spells (fire ball, entangle, web, etc.). This is especially true when combat is real-time, and you don't have the advantage of a completely unobstructed bird's-eye view, with an overlay of 5' squares for measuring with.

I see your point, but I always saw that as one of the NWN interface's greatest weaknesses. The timing effects of NWN's combat are fun, but not really an accurate simulation of 3e tactical combat, IMHO. The constant shuffling, the huge gaps in spellcasting and other factors make combat in NWN an altogether different animal (not to mention the limited spell and feat lists). Some things are just too difficult or impractical to implement in NWN.

As to the issue of suggestions during combat: I don't see a problem with it. We play a relaxed game, and group tactics is part of it. Roleplaying the act of yelling out "Scorch, can you throw a fireball over there?" holds little appeal these days. With six players an a DM, sometimes folks have to get up and walk around the table just to see the combat map from an appropriate angle. With a Druid, Wizard, Cleric, AA, Rog/Shad/GateC and Paladin around the table, we have lots of spells, feats, magic items and other 19th-20th level madness running.

I enlist players to look up details on feats, spells and tactics, even monster listings when appropriate. Life is too short for me to impose draconian rules at the table about the occasional joke or OOC advice. If it got out of hand, I'd consider PC's 'pay the pig' system, but it never has. I could see the need for it, but it's never been an issue, and I doubt it ever will be.

 

[takyris]

Many good thoughts here, for various types of games. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the scenario for when one player simply knows the rules a whole lot better than the other players -- or when one player knows the rules a lot LESS well than the other players. I've got a player in my game who just doesn't get the rules after playing for more than a year. He's still not always comfortable determining how many things he can do while hasted or when he can make a full attack versus a single attack. So people in the group help him out with that. Sometimes it annoys me, but I'd rather have them help him out than have to say, "Nope, you can't do that," myself every time.

On the other hand, there are times when I as the DM can barely hold back from "helping" the players. The party rogue Just Plain Didn't Search for traps a few sessions ago. They walked into a room. An alarm and trap went off. They all made their saves against the trap. They went, "Huh, bummer on the alarm." The alarm eventually went off.

They went into the next room. An alarm and trap went off -- they defeated the monsters magically summoned by the alarm and saved against the trap. "Man, this is gonna suck."

They went into the NEXT room and said to each other, "Okay, let's all be ready for that alarm to go off, and be ready to help anyone who gets caught by the paralyzation trap." At this point, I was banging my head on the table.

Finally, I said, "Um, guys, you know, there's a small chance that the... DEVICE... that sets off the trap and alarm is something that could be... DISABLED. I'm just saying."

At which point the party rogue said, "No, I don't think it would work," and blithely stepped into the room, setting off the alarm and trap for the third time.

At this point, I decided that the monsters teleporting in from the alarm should spontaneously increase in hit dice.

-Tacky

 

[NewJeffCT]

We have actually gotten away from using a battle mat / grid since moving to 3E from 2E. We have a covered table top (green or brown or blue, depending on the terrain) and use our own DM Made templates for area effect spells. If a spell is cast with 60 foot range, we’ll measure out the 6 inches with my skinny little Warhammer ruler.

However, if a mage regularly uses a spell like Fireball, we normally let the DM measure it out to see if it will effect any teammates. After all, a mage is usually pretty intelligent, and he or she should be able to do a pretty good guestimate of how close they will come to their comrades if casting an area effect spell if they cast it with any amount of frequency. The DM may say something like, "Well, if you center it right over this bad guy, you may be pretty close to clipping PC Y as well..." he won’t say for sure, unless they’re right on top of each other, but normally the mage will then move the spell centering a bit back from there.

 

[s/LaSH]

Never really had problems with that in my game. And I would allow a certain amount of OOC chat, but only (as others have stated) as the 'internal voice' of a character who really should know better. A mage who's spent years developing a heavy artillery spell should know its parameters almost by instinct, and if someone wants to remind her of the fact, then go right ahead. Otherwise, "Flank the leader!" is about as far as you can expect to go. Characters will take a little time to figure stuff out on their own, but I expect that as we play fairly tactical combat at my table and the players aren't actually standing on a battlefield looking for foes to line up for a lightning bolt, although their characters are. So a little 'reality interface time' is allowed them.

 

[Agback]

G'day

Don't let the 'master' bit in the ill-chosen term "dungeonmaster" carry you away. This is not a decision you get to make unilaterally. (But on the other hand, neither is it a decision that the character-players get to impose on you.)

First, think carefully about why you would want to do it one way rather than another. Do you want to make the PCs a less effective team? (Why?) Do you want to produce more of the sort of accidents that result when the players do not know the rules as well as the characters know how their world works? (Why?) Do you want each player to have the pleasure of exercising his or her own decision-making faculty, rather than letting one player play all the characters in combat? Does the table-talk offend your sense or how the process of play ought to reflect the processes of the game world?

When you are clear on what you want and why, talk about it with the other players. Explain what you are asking. Ask what they would prefer and why. Be prepared for the possibility that your character-players get something different out of RP than what you get, and be prepared to meet them at a mutually-satisfactory half-way. Because it may be that the prefect game for your taste might be unbearable for theirs, in which case if you 'win' you will lose players.

Above all, acknowledge that you are asking your friends to do something for you, not disciplining your naughty subjects. My experience is that you get more as a voluntary quid pro quo for your efforts in GMing than you do by issuing dictatorial ukases.

Regards,


Agback

 

[dren]

My players will give each other a combat post mortem, OOC at the end of most sessions to analyze what went wrong. But I limit player-to-player OOC gamespeak during combat, (sometime they ask me for a better perspective, which is fine.) But if discussed, during combat, your enemies hear it if they are close enough.