Do you like rules-heavy systems?

Do you prefer a rules heavy system to a more free flowing one?


Sorry, sounds like a player problem that you're trying to blame unfairly on the system, IMO.
Yeah! Get 'em Joshua! ;)

Yeah, Calico Jack, seems to me that you haven't met a very close personal friend of mine: circumstances modifiers. Translation: mess with DCs however you like, just have a reasonable excuse for bumping the DC, not just because it's Thursday or because it's the barbarian doing it, you know?
 

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Felix said:
Yeah! Get 'em Joshua! ;)

Um, let's not "Go Get" anybody. :)

But I agree: circumstance mod's are meant to be used to screw with the DC. The only time someone should know the DC is if they DM wants to tell them - to heighten the drama or to make it seem nastier than it is. I set my DC's all the time, and no one challenges me on them, because the DM authority is final while the game is going on.
 

Henry said:
Um, let's not "Go Get" anybody. :)

But I agree: circumstance mod's are meant to be used to screw with the DC. The only time someone should know the DC is if they DM wants to tell them - to heighten the drama or to make it seem nastier than it is. I set my DC's all the time, and no one challenges me on them, because the DM authority is final while the game is going on.
Not only that, I don't tell my PCs what the DC is, either. I just tell them to make the check, and then I tell them if they succeeded or not. :)
 

I guess my gripe is that I don't like how D&D sets the target number for almost every situation. If the DM deviates from that DC in favor then the players are happy, if he deviates the other way then they are pissed at the DM for not sticking to the rules. Dang it!!! I am the DM!!! Let me set the DC!!!

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I'm just having a hard time imagining anyone's players actually raising a stink about this, unless you were exceptionally arbitrary about an exceptionally standardized check (like a jump check.) Most of the time, I don't even tell the players the DC of a task.

But, yeah, you do set the DC. Though lots of common situations are defined in the books, they are by no means exhaustive; you'd be stuck if you could never define DCs. I'd like to refer you to the "DM's best friend" rule in the DMG.
 

Henry said:
I'm convinced that some people have never seen a REALLY rules heavy game.

Star Fleet Battles from Amarillo Design Bureau is a Rules Heavy Game. 3E is comparatively light...(snip)...
http://www.starfleetgames.com/sfb/sft/images/R3_j5_d77.gif is an example of a middle-sized klingon cruiser. (That's just the ship's sheet. The rules are so comprehensive they look like a town charter, with subssections and subrules.)

Most rules-heavy systems developed from rules-light systems. I remember the original SFB rules - not too bad. Then they added fighters. Then pseudo-fighters. Then mines. Then...you get the idea. Each added feature required new rules to be tacked on, rules which generally used a different mechanic than the previous rules. Next thing you know, you're keeping the rules in a large 3-ring binder (not kidding) and just reading through them feels like studying for a physics final.

3E started with a few simple mechanics which cover a majority of gameplay. Then rules for the 20% or so not covered were added, e.g., grapples. Then players found certain sections confusing or contradictory (how many AoO's does a hydra get each round?), so we have faq's, errata, and sage rulings. But some of these contradicted each other. So finally, the company updates the rules-set to take into account all these changes, clarifications, and "tacked-on" rules, which (no surprise) creates new problems in the new edition. So what happens? We still argue about some very basic rules, house-rule others, and generally accept that every group will get at least some rules wrong.

So we end up with two reasons for rules-heavy systems: poor/changed design, and the scope of the game. Checkers is simple because the game is simple and abstract. But we can't use the rules for checkers to determine whether or not a character survives a fall from a 15' cliff, so we create different rules. And the more situations we expect the rules to adjudicate, the more rules-heavy they become. Each time we, as a community, complain to WOTC about a particular rule, we encourage their designers to add to the rules-set. So we end up with a situation in which most of us say we want rules-light systems, but we demand rules-heavy precision. Ironic, huh?


BTW, just for myself, I define rules-light to mean I don't have to refer to the rules every time I play a game. Checkers, chess, Axis and Allies, bridge, poker, canasta, and other games fall under this heading. Rules-heavy systems require constant referencing. SFB, Third Reich, Champions, 3E, and almost all rpg's are in this group. Some are just not quite so rules-heavy as others.
 

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