Do you like stat-bonus magic items?

[Lord Zardoz]

I think you just proved Kunimatyu's point. First you say that if your PC's don't take any stat-boosting equipment it doesn't matter as long as the same cash is spent.*



but then you say that if they don't use stat boosting items you have to be careful on what CR you send.



CR isn't a science, it's an art. But for appropriately equipped party's, the encounter swing is 1 or 2 points, not the 4 you've mentioned.

My main point of disagreement with Kunimatyu was that avoiding +X to stat items was nigh impossible. Reading his post gave me the impression that from his perspective his choices were either use stat buff items, or go low magic.

A little clarification on what I said. The first part of my point is no mystery. You do not need +X to stat items if the items you do provide are level appropriate. My second point was that selecting encounters approprite to your party is almost never a big deal. If you started at low levels, you will know what your party can and cannot handle easily. Unless you tend to hand out alot of magic gear at once, the players usually wont spike in power that fast.

I will admit that if you use published material AND your partys gear is not up to the expectations of that character level, you will run into problems. But that would only happen if your players have gear weaker than their level suggests, and as I said, avoiding stat buff items does not automatically mean the party is under powered.

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[Kunimatyu]

My main point of disagreement with Kunimatyu was that avoiding +X to stat items was nigh impossible. Reading his post gave me the impression that from his perspective his choices were either use stat buff items, or go low magic.

I don't think "low magic" is possible without the stat and save bumps figured in. That may have been what you meant, I'm not sure.

A little clarification on what I said. The first part of my point is no mystery. You do not need +X to stat items if the items you do provide are level appropriate. My second point was that selecting encounters approprite to your party is almost never a big deal. If you started at low levels, you will know what your party can and cannot handle easily. Unless you tend to hand out alot of magic gear at once, the players usually wont spike in power that fast.

I think that encounter selection -does- become a big deal. It's certainly harder on a DM if they have to take into account the fact that the party's stats are several points behind where they should be, because then they can't just pick a CR close to the party's level and go, they have to put a lot of effort into it. That -can- still work, of course, but it doesn't mean that subsuming stat-boosting into the levelling progression wouldn't make things easier for all parties concerned.

I will admit that if you use published material AND your partys gear is not up to the expectations of that character level, you will run into problems. But that would only happen if your players have gear weaker than their level suggests, and as I said, avoiding stat buff items does not automatically mean the party is under powered.

Stat buff items, at around 10th level, mean that a fighter has attack and damage about +3 higher than he previously would; a mage has more lower level spells and DCs about 2 higher than he otherwise would. Bumping up save DCs by 2 is worth 2+ feats already -- you can't tell me that's not hugely significant.

As a conservative estimate, I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a 6+ level player without at LEAST 1/3 of their wealth invested in stat boost items, probably a lot more.

 

[ThirdWizard]

As a conservative estimate, I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a 6+ level player without at LEAST 1/3 of their wealth invested in stat boost items, probably a lot more.

Lessee... in my 12th level game, each character has a single +4 item, and they're all fine.

 

[messy]

I don't have anything against stat-bonus magic items. If I want flavor and uniqueness for a Longsword +1, I write a neat background and description for the sword. Same thing for any variations of an Headband of Intellect or Ioun Stone. There's no reason why Holy Avengers would be the only weapons with kewl descriptions and a story behind them.

couldn't have said it better myself

ANY item, even a +1 dagger, can be made interesting and less "vanilla" by giving it a brief history, description, or unique feature (magical or otherwise).

But recently I have gotten in the habit of having fun magic items instead of the utterly useful ones. Much more fun.

exactly

all of the unique, flavorful items i've read about in this thread are excellent

I always compare D&D characters to the mythological Perseus. He had a pegasus with a golden magical bridle, a magical reflective shield, a magic sword, a helmet of invisibility, and a number of helpful knicknacks. That's about right for a mid-level D&D character.

Things get annoying around level 18 or so... suddenly, the PCs can have all the medium type magic items they like, and character sheets turn into an accounting nightmare. Things reach Final Fantasy levels of resource management.

I don't think there's a solution. That's a logical consequence of accumulating powerful magic items for ten levels or so. In a world in which magical items exist, it's a given that powerful individuals will acquire dozens of them.

possible solution: reduce the amount of treasure in your game. it will (hopefully) make the player's appreciate the little treasures more.

I contend that you do. Monster attacks, AC, and save DCs assume that your characters have a +X cloak of resistance by level 12, and a +X stat item at level 14, and so on. This is precisely why it's so hard to run a "low-magic" game of D&D -- removing the items means the party gets trounced by monsters because the monsters are built under the assumption you've picked up certain gear.

possible solution: reduce all monsters' CR by 1 (or whatever you think is appropriate).

messy

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I like the ability to boost stats.

"Boring" can be a big advantage. The player desires a reward. The DM wants to give a reward. A stat boost makes the PC simply better at something (probably something he was already good at) without any brainstraining tactical or strategic changes in the game. This is easier on both the player and the DM.

Booster items give the PC a certain amount of say in how their PC turns out. Not every PC will choose to boost the same stats.

Booster items give small quantitative bonuses instead of qualitative changes.

Can you imagine a campaign where the DM gives primarily qualitative rewards? How made oddball items will a typical 10th level PC own? 10? 15? 20? Now multiply that potential weirdness by the number PCs in the party. How is this going to look at 15th level?

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Kunimatyu, I think that at this point, we are mostly in agreement, aside from quibbling of some specific details. I would say our main area of disagreement is in the preceived difficulty of tailoring encounters to a party that lacks stat boosting items. I do not dispute that the game appears to expect a large number of such items to be present. I also concede that such items are the easiest to deal with from a DM standpoint.

You are also correct in that encounter selection is a big deal. Even if you give those details, say 10th level iconic party with standard point buy in a combat intensive campaign, you need still more information. What are you fighting most of the time? Some DM's like giants, some like mind flayers. A party that does well against giants might get slammed and man handled by mind flayers and magic users.

DMs will know their own party's capabilities within the context of their campaign much better than anyone else, except perhaps their players. But I do not think that folding intrinsic stat bonuses into level progression is the way to go. Players may be dumping their money into the kinds of items you describe, but I doubt that every player has the exact same priorities. Some prefer AC boost, others prefer weapon boost.

The problem (if it really is a problem) may be that your players have more direct control over magic item aquisition than is normal. Players tend to build their characters in a systematic way. If they decide they want awesome saves, they will build to that goal. And letting the players decide which items they will get turns magic item selection into a part of character creation. So its no surprise that a 20 Str Half Orc Barbarian is going to choose a magical version of his weapon and Str boosting items, and some rings of protection as his magic items instead of a ring of water breathing, gauntlets of arrow catching, and an immovable rod.

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