Do you like stat-bonus magic items?

[Lord Zardoz]

Items that simply boost stats arent particularly remarkable, and I can see the point that having them in the game does make them fairly mundane.

However, its not like your obligated to use them yourself. About the only thing that can force them into the game is if you have player characters who take the item creation feats and make them. Disallowing that is a fairly diffiicult thing to justify. But aside from that, you really do not have to supply them if you dont want to.

If you want every magical item to be some sort of unique and wonderful object that has its own history its certaintly possible. It just means doing a bit more of work as a DM to create and describe those objects.

Also, the comments of how going up a level and getting a +1 Bab not being a big deal should take a closer look at the classes involved. Remember that every class gets a feat every 3 levels and a stat increase every 4 levels. This means that Fighters score with a new feat on every level except 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, and 19. Barbarians get more rage and uncanny dodge, and eventually damage reduction. Paladins get spell casting, remove disease, Smite Evil, improved lay on hands. Rangers get favoured enemy, combat style, eventually get some spell casting.

And all of this disregards gaining skill points.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Kunimatyu]

Items that simply boost stats arent particularly remarkable, and I can see the point that having them in the game does make them fairly mundane.

However, its not like your obligated to use them yourself. About the only thing that can force them into the game is if you have player characters who take the item creation feats and make them. Disallowing that is a fairly diffiicult thing to justify. But aside from that, you really do not have to supply them if you dont want to.

I contend that you do. Monster attacks, AC, and save DCs assume that your characters have a +X cloak of resistance by level 12, and a +X stat item at level 14, and so on. This is precisely why it's so hard to run a "low-magic" game of D&D -- removing the items means the party gets trounced by monsters because the monsters are built under the assumption you've picked up certain gear.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I contend that you do. Monster attacks, AC, and save DCs assume that your characters have a +X cloak of resistance by level 12, and a +X stat item at level 14, and so on. This is precisely why it's so hard to run a "low-magic" game of D&D -- removing the items means the party gets trounced by monsters because the monsters are built under the assumption you've picked up certain gear.

I insist that you do not. The CR for monsters assumes level appropriate gear. I am sure that if you replaced the stat boosting items with items that instead had other, comparable effects, such as casting spells, letting PC's fly, granting improved invisiblity or stone skin X times per day, Vampiric Regeneration, Fast healing, etc, things would still play out as expected.

Alternatively, if you do not give out simple stat boosting items, and you do not grant items that otherwise enhance the players offense or defense, then you simply have to be more careful in your monster choices. A 12th level party with no mundane stat boosting items might be more on par with an effective party level of 8, so use CR 8 enemies. Monster CR is a guideline, not a promise of accuracy. A party with nothing but fighters will get slammed by CR appropriate number of mind flayers due to crappy will saves.

Unless you are running a party created with Standard Point buy consisting of 1 each of a fighter, cleric, rogue, and Wizard, and are giving out perfectly level appropriate gear, the CR values for monsters should not be taken litterally. You need to consider what your party consists of when selecting monsters.

If you start your game out at 1st level and level up at a reasonable pace, you should have a very good idea of what your PC's can and cannot handle. Picking monsters that are reasonable challenges is not that difficult.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[ThirdWizard]

I contend that you do.

I disagree. You just need good gear, not specific gear. For example, instead of getting an Amulet of Health +6, you can get a Minor Cloak of Displacement. In some cases the cloak is better, in some the amulet is better. If you're going to choose one or the other, it's not cut and dry toward the (more expensive) Con increasing item. There are choices to be made.

This is one reason that making ability increases a built in function wouldn't be necessarily a good thing. The other main reason is that to some classes a stat increase is more important than others. Wizards mainly benefit from Int items, while clerics benefit from more and monks from more still.

If you don't want straight up stat boosts, then you can always go for something more interesting that works to be the same benefit or stack other things on them. That Periphat of Wisdom boring to you? Give it the wearer the ability to speak with spirits 3/day for an augury effect. Or throw in an effect that does 1d6 damage to the user whenever they make a Will save along with the ability to gain a reroll once per day because of their newfound insight into situations around them.

Even the most minor effect is probably enough. I've found Players rarely care how powerful something is if it is unique. They've seen everything in the DMG right? Time to throw something new at them. You can still use the stat boosts and +s on weapons, and increases to saving throws if you think they're necessary. Doesn't matter, you won't even notice anymore.

Here's a few random things I've made recently that give pluses, but do more:

[sblock]

Tatoos of the Moon

These tatoos give a +1 dodge bonus to all reflex saving throws made. As a Free Action, speaking the command word Aeluthys Selûne (“Selûne, guide me,” in Celestial) you may activate their special ability to gain a Speed Fly 20’ (perfect) for one round. If you use this ability, the tatoo dissapears the next round, and the bonus to reflex saves with it. After 24 hours it reappears and the +1 dodge bonus to reflex saves resumes.


Amulet of Magic Aura Dampening

Any spell effects on the wearer are hidden from detection. This does not extend to magical items or spell effects on items worn, but only to effects directly cast onto the wearer. Also, the first time in a day when the wearer would miss a target DC, attack roll, or saving throw by 1, this item gives the wearer a +1 luck bonus to that roll.


Devil Heartstone

This black stone is only about three inches across, but it is in the shape of a humanoid heart. It serves a dual purpose, it can both warn of the approach of a devil and it gives anyone who has it on him or her bonuses against the creatures.

Whenever a devil is near the wearer, within 100 yards, the stone begins to beat as a normal heart would. As the devil gets closer it beats faster. When the devil is very close, it is beating extremely fast.

When someone with this stone on them makes an attack against a demon, they get a +1 insight bonus on attacks and a +1 insight bonus to caster level checks to bypass its SR.


Ring of Air and Earth

This ring looks almost as if two rings were welded together. When flipped one way, the ring appears to be gold, and when flipped upside down, it appears silver. Around the length of the ring between the two is a band that changes color (see below). If the gold side is facing out when worn, the ring gives a +2 resistance bonus to fortitude saves. If worn with the silver side facing out it gives a +2 resistance bonus to reflex saves.

Once per day it can activate one of two powers, depending on which side is facing outward when the command word is spoken.

If the air side is facing outward, the command word is Leilul (take to the air in Auran). This will give the user Fly Speed 30 (perfect) for 1 minute. After the duration expires, the user will fall to the ground as gravity takes over.

If the earth side is facing outward, the command word is Rahudha (one with the earth in Terran). This will give the user the Earth Glide ability (just like Earth Elementals) at Speed 30 for 1 minute. After the duration expires, the user will be shunted out of the earth to the closest possible location taking 1d6 damage per 5’ shunted.

Only one of these abilities can be activated once per day. Encumbrance (and armor) affects both of the listed speeds, so if you are wearing heavy armor or under heavy encumbrance, your Speed will drop to 20. Activating the ring is a standard action.
[/sblock]

 

[Flyspeck23]

Count me in on the "I like stat-bonus items" front. While I don't love them, they certainly don't bother me.

I'm honestly a little surprised by the vitriol; I really do think that with a touch of creativity they can be quite cool.

Indeed. It's all about making the items interesting - while that goes for all magic items, I think it's quite easy with stat-boosting items, at least for me.

I'd be quite happy if the effect of stat-boosters was reduced or eliminated from the game, assuming that the effect of stats was similarly curtailed. (Strength bonuses don't worry me within the normal range of stats, but requiring a 19 Intelligence for 9th level spells requires intelligence boosters).

Any self-respecting wizard will start with at least INT 16 (standard spread, point-buy). He'll have INT 19 by 12th level, and INT 20 by the time he can cast 9th level spells.

Random stats might be a problem, depending on the method. But even then you'd only need INT 15 to start casting 9th level spells as soon as possible - without stat-boosting items.

Frankly, I don't see the problem.

 

[Terwox]

Stat items don't bother me. Just part of the game. I guess I'd maybe like a system where a person could gain stat boosts permanently instead of using the items, and then have less items that were each more interesting, but, I don't have a good fix for it.

I like Piratecat's method, but yikes, that's a lot of story to generate for so many stat-boosting items that people will have over the levels! A lot of players of mine would rather say, if we're starting at higher level -- "ok, I spent 16k gold on a +4 X of Y, 32k on my weapon of X, 32k on my armor of X. Let's get to the gaming now."

I've had a single instance of a player generating a neat one... a player rolled a psion with terrible stats and put them into physical stats. For his backstory he described himself as the picked on kid who developed psychic powers -- so, in his backstory, once he got psychic powers and levels (we started at 10th) he made a ring of power that raised his str, dex, and con mods from a total of -7 to a total of -2. I cut him half (or quarter, I don't remember) price for the ring because it was all backstory, useless to him statistically, and his stats were abysmal. I'm not doing his character justice... he definitely played the creepy old psychic man quite well.

 

[Storm Raven]

Spurious logic at best - "You have no way of knowing whether they might have had magic socks, amulets and underwear that were never mentioned."

No, I'm taking the stance that counting up "known" magic items in a work of literature and trying to apply that to a game system is, as you say:

RUBBISH!

There's plenty of evidence in the story. For example, Frodo most certainly did not, as everything he had was stripped from him when he was captured. Boromir was laid to rest with all of his worldly possessions.

And? How is this evidence, for example, that Boromir had no magical items in his possession other than his horn and cloak? Most people don't loot the bodies of their friends outside of D&D games.

Gandalf also awoke "naked" and was clothed in white by the Elves of Lothlorien. The only items anyone commented on were Glamdring and Narya, and his (now white) staff. No headband of intellect in sight, and nothing recognizable from his old stuff.

And? How is this evidence of anything? He got new stuff from the elves. Known makers of piles of magical gear throughout the stories. Are you certain none of it had special abilities? Or are you just projecting what you want the unsaid portion of the story to say?

I'm not saying that he had other magical gear. What I'm saying is that there isn't any evidence that he didn't.

Aragorn was clad as a "Ranger of the North." He did have the elfstone, but didn't wear it as a matter of course. So unless you're going to ascribe all kinds of magical effects to his clothes, he too had nothing.

Aren't most D&D stat enhancing items simply articles of clothing?

Why shouldn't 90 percent of the character's abilities be intrinsic to them personally? Why should half come from their "stuff?" Are experienced adventurers really only 50 percent experience and 50 percent loot? If so, are they really THAT special?

Why should 90% of their abilities be intrinsic to them personally?

I definitely have less of a problem with items that autoscale with level. They're certainly a vast improvement. I'm still kinda annoyed by an item that makes a PC smarter (or, especially, wiser!) without drawbacks. Getting your fundamental personality adjusted without a penalty just feels kinda wrong somehow...

Complaining about the nature of magic, which, by definition violates the known laws of our universe, is inherently silly.

 

[lukelightning]

I contend that you do. Monster attacks, AC, and save DCs assume that your characters have a +X cloak of resistance by level 12, and a +X stat item at level 14, and so on.

Not to mention that the vast majority of monsters have far better stats than PCs. Not just strength and constitution; there are hordes of monsters, even run-of-the-mill ones, that are smarter, wiser, and more charismatic than PC races.

 

[Piratecat]

I like Piratecat's method, but yikes, that's a lot of story to generate for so many stat-boosting items that people will have over the levels! A lot of players of mine would rather say, if we're starting at higher level -- "ok, I spent 16k gold on a +4 X of Y, 32k on my weapon of X, 32k on my armor of X. Let's get to the gaming now."

I'm not sure you need to do it with more than one per person. The goal is just to make them seem capable of being unique -- so if you as a DM get bored later and decide that one of them starts exhibiting new powers, you have an example already set.

 

[iwatt]

I think you just proved Kunimatyu's point. First you say that if your PC's don't take any stat-boosting equipment it doesn't matter as long as the same cash is spent.*

I insist that you do not. The CR for monsters assumes level appropriate gear. I am sure that if you replaced the stat boosting items with items that instead had other, comparable effects, such as casting spells, letting PC's fly, granting improved invisiblity or stone skin X times per day, Vampiric Regeneration, Fast healing, etc, things would still play out as expected.

but then you say that if they don't use stat boosting items you have to be careful on what CR you send.

Alternatively, if you do not give out simple stat boosting items, and you do not grant items that otherwise enhance the players offense or defense, then you simply have to be more careful in your monster choices. A 12th level party with no mundane stat boosting items might be more on par with an effective party level of 8, so use CR 8 enemies. Monster CR is a guideline, not a promise of accuracy. A party with nothing but fighters will get slammed by CR appropriate number of mind flayers due to crappy will saves.

CR isn't a science, it's an art. But for appropriately equipped party's, the encounter swing is 1 or 2 points, not the 4 you've mentioned.

* Judging equal value of treasure is very hard. A magic carpet, albeit very cool, isn't as useful all the time in the same way that a good cloak of resistance is. which leads to another issue about the christmas tree effect: it's more cost effective to boost stats through many different items than to use 2 very cool items. You get a better AC using a +1 shield, +1ring, +1 armor, +1 amulet of NA, for a significantly lower price than the ubercool shield of your ancestors, passed on father to son through the ages.