D&D 5E Do you mind not experiencing traditional lower level challenges?

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I'm not talking about making up new mechanics. In my example, the purpose of specifying "narrow passages" was so the Goblins could physically block the PCs. But there are plenty of other possible examples. In a town, for example those 8 Goblins might fan out with lit torches to ignite the thatched roofs of the nearby buildings. Sure, killing them all might only take 2-3 rounds, but it forces the PCs to choose between stopping and taking that time (plus any time necessary for firefighting) or letting the town burn.

In any case, the individual examples aren't terribly important. My point is that monsters can threaten the PCs' goals long after they stop being a lethal threat in combat. Many of the roles for monsters in previous editions didn't depend on being a lethal threat to the PCs, so those roles are still possible even with a reduced threat level.
Yes the examples do matter because they don't support the function you are giving them.

no those goblins in a narrow hallway really don't. They either get nova'd down instantly to get them out of the way or it's an "epic" slog. The narrow hallway & 8 goblins against a high level party changes things too... fireball/lightning bolt/etc & go. You don't have the barbarian trying to charging/leaping power attack past the golem's dr or the high ac types cowering at range from the incorporeal creature while the dex types now up front are trying to keep it contained but are not too thrilled about the four skeletons up the hall... instead you have a whole bunch of monsters to wade over till the blood is ankle deep.
 

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Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
Yes the examples do matter because they don't support the function you are giving them.

no those goblins in a narrow hallway really don't. They either get nova'd down instantly to get them out of the way or it's an "epic" slog. The narrow hallway & 8 goblins against a high level party changes things too... fireball/lightning bolt/etc & go. You don't have the barbarian trying to charging/leaping power attack past the golem's dr or the high ac types cowering at range from the incorporeal creature while the dex types now up front are trying to keep it contained but are not too thrilled about the four skeletons up the hall... instead you have a whole bunch of monsters to wade over till the blood is ankle deep.

I'm not following your argument. All I'm saying is that monsters too weak to threaten the PCs can still threaten the PCs' goals, permitting weak monsters to still be a challenge. Are you disagreeing with that claim?
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I'm not following your argument. All I'm saying is that monsters too weak to threaten the PCs can still threaten the PCs' goals, permitting weak monsters to still be a challenge. Are you disagreeing with that claim?
fLets say you have 4-6 players in the group
  • I cast Lightning bolt/fireball & continue with the remainder of my 30 feet movement>lets go
  • everyone uses a ranged weapon/cantrip to burn them down while movingtheir full move till they get there & start beating them in melee were some classes start doing more damage.
  • The only time they accomplish the role you are giving them is when they are either giant balls of hp or in numbers so great that they are a nightmare to track.... both are a mindnumbing slog
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
fLets say you have 4-6 players in the group
  • I cast Lightning bolt/fireball & continue with the remainder of my 30 feet movement>lets go
  • everyone uses a ranged weapon/cantrip to burn them down while movingtheir full move till they get there & start beating them in melee were some classes start doing more damage.
  • The only time they accomplish the role you are giving them is when they are either giant balls of hp or in numbers so great that they are a nightmare to track.... both are a mindnumbing slog

I still am not sure whether you're disagreeing with my claim or only contesting the original example?

With regards to that example, I would note that I included that the goblins can use Dodge and smart use of full cover to prolong the fight to last 2-3 rounds. Considering that those strategies (terrain and positioning permitting, but why would the goblins ever position themselves to be vulnerable to AoE?) may obviate your suggestions for cleaning the goblins in 1 round, I don't find your argument against my example persuasive.

But again, the example was offered to be illustrative, not to prove my claim. If you're disagreeing with my claim in the abstract then we can discuss that rather than worrying about the details of the example.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I still am not sure whether you're disagreeing with my claim or only contesting the original example?

With regards to that example, I would note that I included that the goblins can use Dodge and smart use of full cover to prolong the fight to last 2-3 rounds. Considering that those strategies (terrain and positioning permitting, but why would the goblins ever position themselves to be vulnerable to AoE?) may obviate your suggestions for cleaning the goblins in 1 round, I don't find your argument against my example persuasive.

But again, the example was offered to be illustrative, not to prove my claim. If you're disagreeing with my claim in the abstract then we can discuss that rather than worrying about the details of the example.
why would they be vulnerable to an aoe like fireball or a line spell with a 100 foot range like lightning bolt in a "narrow passage" so "the Goblins could physically block the PCs. "
I don't know....
1583459676075.png

Maybe because it's a bad example that assumes too much narrative handwaving and ignores the mechanics of the game in order for it to work. If the hallway is large enough to let them disengage & they have enough room between each other to do so then they are not blocking the hallway or are close enough to get caught in an aoe, line, cone or similar spell and are probably not blocking the path very well. The words that tend to thwart those chases you are talking about are things like "misty step" and "I'm a tabaxi so..."
 

coolAlias

Explorer
I'm going from memory here but I seem to remember in 3.5: magic, silver, adamantine, cold iron, holy(?). Ideally in both edged and bludgeoning variations.

I found it annoying and I had a house rule that said that a +2 weapon covered pretty much everything in my home campaign. But it was annoying to have to have multiple weapons for the monster of the week in LG.

I can see needing a special weapon or tactic every once in a blue moon to make a specific legendary monster special. But when it's every fourth monster I found it annoying. As far as "forcing players" to do anything ... well that's just not my style.

But that's just my opinion. It didn't add anything to the game for me, it was just extra paperwork.
Yeah, 3.5 went pretty overboard with resistance types, but it did provide a nice exploration reward for players that took the effort to gather information about what types of creatures they would be facing and what their weaknesses might be. Maybe not so fun if you're often facing off against random or extremely varied monsters, but if you know you'll be up against lots of devils, bring out the cold iron.

You'd have to run an extremely low-magic game in 5e to make silvered / adamantine / other weapons relevant, and even then you have Monks, Hexblade Warlocks, and others with class features that could easily make them irrelevant again.

It just seems a little pointless to even bother including those materials when everyone will be running with magic-equivalent weapons by 5th or so anyway, especially considering how quickly the first levels go by now.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
I find L1 - L3 necessary to figure out how your class features work together (or how they don't do what you thought). Try bringing in a never-previously-played L6 Swashbuckler Rogue and discover you forgot to actually give him the two-weapon fighting package (feat, fighting style, gear)!
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
why would they be vulnerable to an aoe like fireball or a line spell with a 100 foot range like lightning bolt in a "narrow passage" so "the Goblins could physically block the PCs. "
I don't know....
View attachment 119182
Maybe because it's a bad example that assumes too much narrative handwaving and ignores the mechanics of the game in order for it to work. If the hallway is large enough to let them disengage & they have enough room between each other to do so then they are not blocking the hallway or are close enough to get caught in an aoe, line, cone or similar spell and are probably not blocking the path very well. The words that tend to thwart those chases you are talking about are things like "misty step" and "I'm a tabaxi so..."

So what are you claiming? That it is impossible for monsters who don't pose a deadly threat to challenge the PCs by threatening their goals? Or do you just really not like my first, illustrative, example for some reason? Please clarify what point you are trying to make.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Nobody needs to fight the giant rats in the tavern cellar

But early levels are best run as Scooby mysteries than fights - the werewolf isnt going to be a hard challenge to fight but perhaps the challenge is going into the village and trying to identfy just who the werewolf is. Then theres the issue of who is protecting the werewolf

This is what I did last werewolf adventure I did. The misdirect was the rulers half brother, the actual werewolf was the ex ruler who killed the current rulers mother and ran off into the woods.

The clues were a generous conversion rate on silver pieces in the barony.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
Insulting other members
I'm not going to mention kobolds and skeletons and other things that were moderately scary in small numbers at first level but are only a challenge in the dozens fairly soon. I don't mind that part so much. I also didn't list a lot of beasts, like giant scorpion, or monsters that tend to work behind the scenes, like hags. I'll give some examples of monsters that seem like they should be scary as loners (maybe with a couple of weaker pets or so), as something you could run into and find a dangerous challenge. I also tried to stick to more classic examples rather than putting in everything that might fit the bill mechanically.

By level 2, these critters aren't scary:
-Giant Spider
-Ogre
-Wererat
-Werewolf
Level 3:
-Carrion Crawler
-Gelatinous Cube
-Displacer Beast
-Manticore
-Minotaur
-Owlbear
-Phase Spider
-Wight
Level 4:
-Banshee
-Ettin
-Ghost
-Helmed Horror
-Succubus/Incubus
Level 5: At this point pretty much anything less than CR 8 or higher can be destroyed by a party.

Again, those are few of the loner encounter examples that stand out the most. If you add in something like, "a dozen kobolds/goblins", or "a few bugbears" you can fill in more classic threats that go away.

You realize it's not April 1st yet, right?

Or....
1) The DM in question doesn't know what their doing.
2) You're just throwing random single creatures into a sealed arena vs 4 characters & not using any # of their abilities.
3) You're just full of crap.
 

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