D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

[Maxperson]

First of all, did they actually fail? Some people think they didn't. Not me, I mean, I think they failed; though they came a lot closer than 3e did. Also, it's okay as long as you're in the ballpark. Your words, right. How big is the ballpark?

Yes it did fail. It wasn't ever balanced, so fail it did. I will agree that they came closer than 3e did, though. That edition was the least balanced of the bunch.

I also played 2e extensively, and I disagree. Second level spells were pretty nice. Third spell level was where some of the more iconic and transformative stuff comes into play, but second spell level had some good stuff. I also disagree that wizards outclassed fighters at 5th level. They definitely did at 9th level. But, you also can't compare straight levels in 2e because of the different advancement rates. If you want a real comparison, you have to compare at the xp amount: i.e. a 2k xp fighter vs a 2k xp wizard, and so on.

Yes, some second level spells were really nice, but the low hit points at 3-4th level, combined with low numbers of spells, made wizards still weak at those levels. 4th level was iffy, since if you were a specialist and rolled well on hit points, you passed fighters up at that level. That's why I said they were weaker until "about 5th level".

 

[Sadras]

That is exactly the reason I got some headaches on how to convert DS races to 5e
Mul = Halforc that one is easy, but how do I do a Halfgiant without breaking BA?

Following from my post #525, instead of breaking BA with the modifiers just provide additional racial benefits like I did with Brute Strength for half-orcs.
Give them Brute Strength or upgrade it to Giant Strength or Powerful Build increasing their Carrying Capacity and Push,Pull & Drag capability even further for each point of STR.

Introduce Giant Blood which could double the ability modifier when performing feats requiring strength (i.e. climbing, jumping, bending bars...etc) or instead might give them a +1 bonus/3 points in STR in STR saves and STR related skills checks.
Or give them a racial trait that allows them to draw on their inner reserves, allowing them to expend 1HD to deal more damage in a melee/thrown weapon attack.

Perhaps you introduce racial ability minimums as per @Yaarel's post #210, so for instance Half-Giant must start with minimum 16 STR and they gain a racial +4 STR bonus, which means 20 STR. Increase the maximum STR to 22 for Halfgiants, but if you're using a flatter ability table like I suggested it won't break BA.

12-15 +1
16-18 +2
19-21 +3
22-24 +4
25-27 +5
28-30 +6
...etc

Many options are open to you without having to worrying about BA

 

[Caliban]

This exactly did get not viewed exactly enough in the whole discussion.
Even if we came to a conclusion that racial mods should be introduced somehow the BA concept is a system immanent showstopper on that.
That is exactly the reason I got some headaches on how to convert DS races to 5e
Mul = Halforc that one is easy, but how do I do a Halfgiant without breaking BA?
And please don't point me to any Goliath, Goliaths are munchkin sorry if I have to point that out.

*shrug* You could point it out, but you'd be wrong. Goliaths are the 5e equivalent of half giants. Far less munchkin than the DS half giant, anyway.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

We can observe that Halfling hands are shaped much like humans and we can assume that their fine motor skills are at least equivalent to humans. However, agility very much is a consequence of your strength to weight ratio. Cats for example, like the caracal are plenty agile in D&D terms, despite having very little fine motor skills (ei, no hands).

More than anything else, that just speaks of the inability of the D&D mechanical language to describe things that aren't humans. It's a mostly-reasonable abstraction to link manual dexterity with agility when you're talking about mostly-athletic mostly-human adventurers - they types of adventurers who have great manual dexterity are also the types who are likely to have great agility. It doesn't make as much sense to link manual dexterity with agility when you're talking about a cat or ape.

 

[Lylandra]

More than anything else, that just speaks of the inability of the D&D mechanical language to describe things that aren't humans. It's a mostly-reasonable abstraction to link manual dexterity with agility when you're talking about mostly-athletic mostly-human adventurers - they types of adventurers who have great manual dexterity are also the types who are likely to have great agility. It doesn't make as much sense to link manual dexterity with agility when you're talking about a cat or ape.

And even in humans, manual dexterity (which is used for sleight of *hands* etc) is not the same as overall bodily agility (which should be used for acrobatics) or quickness/reflexes ("dex saves" and initiative). Otherwise the best acrobats in this world would also qualify for the best fine mechanics.

The same is true for all the other stats... Constitution not being the same as Stamina. And Strength can be divided in both upper and lower body strength (which, again, can and will differ greatly in average individuals), as well as pure force vs. ability to generate impulse. And don't get me started on the mess that is Wisdom...

 

[The Crimson Binome]

And even in humans, manual dexterity (which is used for sleight of *hands* etc) is not the same as overall bodily agility (which should be used for acrobatics) or quickness/reflexes ("dex saves" and initiative). Otherwise the best acrobats in this world would also qualify for the best fine mechanics.

No, but it's a reasonable abstraction when you're specifically talking about heroic archetypes in a fantasy world. The hero with the giant axe is very likely to also be good at climbing, and the thief with the dagger or bow is going to be good at sneaking and picking locks.

 

[Sadras]

Its funny these conversations are coming in to play now as I have been looking at breaking down the abilities in our 5e game into the subcategories of the 2e Player's Option: Skills and Powers. Not that the system represented there was perfect, but it was more defined than it currently is.

 

[Lylandra]

No, but it's a reasonable abstraction when you're specifically talking about heroic archetypes in a fantasy world. The hero with the giant axe is very likely to also be good at climbing, and the thief with the dagger or bow is going to be good at sneaking and picking locks.

I understand that. Doesn't fit my own image too well (to me, a good climber/swimmer is not very muscular, but lean, agile AND athletic), but YMMV.

It's just funny to see where different people draw their lines when it comes to "playability" or "abstraction". To me, mixing up different kinds of strength or dexterity is the same level of abstraction as hand-waving or explaining a super strong halfling.

 

[Sadras]

I understand that. Doesn't fit my own image too well (to me, a good climber/swimmer is not very muscular, but lean, agile AND athletic), but YMMV.

You could use the 5e variant rules:
Swimming against a strong current: Athletics + STR
Swimming in a race: Athletics + DEX

It's just funny to see where different people draw their lines when it comes to "playability" or "abstraction". To me, mixing up different kinds of strength or dexterity is the same level of abstraction as hand-waving or explaining a super strong halfling.

It is not so funny to me. Gamers decide all the time whether to use Low-Magic or High Magic in their campaigns, Slower Healing Rates, Flanking Variant, The 5e Injury Table...but you seem to stumble and question when people don't hand-wave strong halflings?!!!!

Now that is funny!

 

[Lylandra]

You could using 5e variant rules implement:
Swimming against a strong current: Athletics + STR
Swimming in a race: Athletics + DEX



It is not so funny to me. Gamers decide all the time whether to use Low-Magic or High Magic in their campaigns, Slower Healing Rates, Flanking Variant, The 5e Injury Table...but you seem to stumble and question when people don't hand-wave strong halflings?!!!!

Now that is funny!

no, it is more of a rhetoric question. Because... you see, the halfling is the way he is unless you houserule. Same with mixing "constitution & stamina" into CON. The other stuff you describe are official variant rules which have been balanced and playtested.