D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

[Celebrim]

TBH, if I were going to include STR racial caps for halflings it would be much lower than 17. These creatures are 3 feet tall, thats under a metre. The difference between the brute STR of Humans and Halflings or even Half-Orcs and Halflings should be massive.

If you assume that halflings are built to the same body plan as humans, then yes, you are correct. They probably only weigh 30 pounds, and that severely limits maximum strength. You might assume that halflings are no more strong than toddlers.

However, humans are built along one of the lowest strength to mass ratios of any animal their size - built for caloric efficiency and endurance, not power. A typical 80 pound female chimpanzee is stronger than a typical 200lb male human. Supposing that halflings are built along the same body plan as chimpanzees, with relatively thicker bones and larger attachment points for muscles, and more fast muscle and less slow muscle gets us a very different answer. Such a body plan might also explain why halflings are afraid of water in the source material - they don't have near neutral buoyancy the way humans do, and instead sink like rocks. It also explains why halflings would be so athletic for their size.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If you assume that halflings are built to the same body plan as humans, then yes, you are correct. They probably only weigh 30 pounds, and that severely limits maximum strength. You might assume that halflings are no more strong than toddlers.

However, humans are built along one of the lowest strength to mass ratios of any animal their size - built for caloric efficiency and endurance, not power. A typical 80 pound female chimpanzee is stronger than a typical 200lb male human. Supposing that halflings are built along the same body plan as chimpanzees, with relatively thicker bones and larger attachment points for muscles, and more fast muscle and less slow muscle gets us a very different answer.

If the musculature of a halfling was built more like a chimpanzee than like a human, then they would suffer a massive penalty to Dexterity, instead of the bonus they actually receive. Humans are optimized for, among other things, fine manipulation.

Also, the book does tell us that they weigh about 30 lbs.

 

[Ganymede81]

You're equating longitudinal balance to poison?

Bang out of line.

Why even bother deflecting when you could have simply not responded? It saves everybody time.

In case you wanted to make a more substantive attempt at responding, I've copied my prior post below.


"Yeah, but they don't cancel out, because the math doesn't work like that. Imbalance is imbalance, whether something is underpowered or overpowered. If a class spends one half of its lifespan underpowered and one half of its lifespan overpowered, that does not magically average out to be balanced overall. That is instead a class that is imbalanced 100% of the time.

But yeah, you are right on one level. If I allow that E Coli contaminated beef is OK, I've opened myself up to a huge amount of new culinary experiences. "

 

[Maxperson]

If you assume that halflings are built to the same body plan as humans, then yes, you are correct. They probably only weigh 30 pounds, and that severely limits maximum strength. You might assume that halflings are no more strong than toddlers.

However, humans are built along one of the lowest strength to mass ratios of any animal their size - built for caloric efficiency and endurance, not power. A typical 80 pound female chimpanzee is stronger than a typical 200lb male human. Supposing that halflings are built along the same body plan as chimpanzees, with relatively thicker bones and larger attachment points for muscles, and more fast muscle and less slow muscle gets us a very different answer. Such a body plan might also explain why halflings are afraid of water in the source material - they don't have near neutral buoyancy the way humans do, and instead sink like rocks. It also explains why halflings would be so athletic for their size.

It would be nice for the fluff to say that, then. Then there wouldn't be this disconnect between fluff and crunch that represents a small break in the game.

 

[Celebrim]

If the musculature of a halfling was built more like a chimpanzee than like a human, then they would suffer a massive penalty to Dexterity, instead of the bonus they actually receive. Humans are optimized for, among other things, fine manipulation.

Also, the book does tell us that they weigh about 30 lbs.

First of all, 'Dexterity' encompasses both fine motor skills and gross agility. And secondly, the inability of chimpanzees to manipulate small objects and the like has nothing at all to do with their strength to weight ratio, but rather the shape of their thumb and hand, and the relative lack of brain power devoted to their hands. We can observe that Halfling hands are shaped much like humans and we can assume that their fine motor skills are at least equivalent to humans. However, agility very much is a consequence of your strength to weight ratio. Cats for example, like the caracal are plenty agile in D&D terms, despite having very little fine motor skills (ei, no hands).

 

[Celebrim]

It would be nice for the fluff to say that, then. Then there wouldn't be this disconnect between fluff and crunch that represents a small break in the game.

I don't think it is necessary to explicitly say that. The 'physics' of halflings imply it. If they are nearly as strong as humans, then it has to be that they've got a more muscular body plan for their size. This is the sort of thing only simulationist types care about, and if you do care about it, then you are happy to find any reasonable explanation that suits the mechanics. You should only get bothered by a disconnect between fluff and crunch if a reasonable explanation doesn't present itself.

 

[MechaPilot]

Balance is a pipe dream. It can't happen without making races and classes clones of each other, which drastically reduces how enjoyable game play is. As long as you're in the same ball park, that should be sufficient.

Balance is not a pipe dream; it's a broad term that encompasses several different paradigms, including the BECMI/AD&D 2e concept of balance over time, plus balance at the character level, balance per adventuring day, balance through equivalent options, etc. If you want to say that the AD&D 2e classes were clones of each other because they were balanced (using the over-time paradigm) you're welcome to make that claim, though I think you'll find few supporters.

Now perfect balance, no matter what paradigm you're using is a pipe dream; as is perfect anything for that matter.

 

[MechaPilot]

Not me. I'm perfectly fine with games that are not balanced. I had lots of fun with 1e-3e and 5e, none of which were even close to being balanced. Had a blast with Marvel Superheroes in the 80's and 90's(not balanced).

Balance over time is a kind of balance, regardless of how well or poorly it was executed.

 

[Satyrn]

This is going way beyond D&D, but about the verb "other", since it appeared earlier in the thread:

To me this is a debasement of the original concept . . .

Oh my. Are you sure you really wanted it respond to "This makes me feel othered" with "Well actually . . ."

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think it is necessary to explicitly say that. The 'physics' of halflings imply it. If they are nearly as strong as humans, then it has to be that they've got a more muscular body plan for their size. This is the sort of thing only simulationist types care about, and if you do care about it, then you are happy to find any reasonable explanation that suits the mechanics. You should only get bothered by a disconnect between fluff and crunch if a reasonable explanation doesn't present itself.

There is nothing about the fluff that indicates that they are any stronger than a toddler. The rule does not match the fluff and that makes it a broken section of the game. And get off the freaking simulation kick. It's a Strawman. There is nothing simulationist about a halfling being as strong as a half-orc, and all I'm asking for is for the fluff to match the rule, not for the rule to change to make them as weak as a toddler.