D&D 5E Do you need mechanical choices after 1st level to be D&D?

So, basic question, is there something fundamental to D&D that would be lost in such a scenario? Am I inviting my players to tie me up and kick me in the crotch for proposing such a terrible idea? Am I missing anything? (I have a bunch of supporting house rules for this idea, but I haven't posted them.)
The thing you describe in the post is different from the subject line of the thread.

There are plenty of versions of D&D where characters don't have choices after first level. There is no version where no character gains any additional powers after first level. For the versions without choices, those powers were gained at higher levels, but were set in stone and did not offer a choice.
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The thing you describe in the post is different from the subject line of the thread.

There are plenty of versions of D&D where characters don't have choices after first level. There is no version where no character gains any additional powers after first level. For the versions without choices, those powers were gained at higher levels, but were set in stone and did not offer a choice.
That's fair. Do you feel that the lack of having predefined powers granted at higher level is enough to make it not feel like D&D?
 

That's fair. Do you feel that the lack of having predefined powers granted at higher level is enough to make it not feel like D&D?
Personally, it wouldn't bother me. I mostly played Fighters, because I didn't want to experience the disappointment of never getting my cool power at level 4 or 10. I think that giving all important powers at level 1, and then having those powers improve over time, will let players focus more on the game at hand instead of what might happen in the distant future.
 

MostlyDm

Explorer
Sounds fantastic, though a fair amount of work as has been said.

I do wonder if the 5e framework is the best fit; A different rules framework might lend itself to this more easily. That said, I'm still running a BX/3.5E6 mashup that's 80% home brew and 20% recognizable D&D rules and its probably the most fun I've ever had running a game. I think 5e would've been even better than 3.5 as a starting point. So I think you can definitely do it. And it sounds really cool!

If you're ever interested in sharing more of your house rules, that would be awesome. You've piqued my curiosity now.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Sounds fantastic, though a fair amount of work as has been said.

I do wonder if the 5e framework is the best fit; A different rules framework might lend itself to this more easily. That said, I'm still running a BX/3.5E6 mashup that's 80% home brew and 20% recognizable D&D rules and its probably the most fun I've ever had running a game. I think 5e would've been even better than 3.5 as a starting point. So I think you can definitely do it. And it sounds really cool!

If you're ever interested in sharing more of your house rules, that would be awesome. You've piqued my curiosity now.
Sure thing...here's what I have so far. I have more ideas for backgrounds, just trying to establish a template for now.

1) Every player chooses a race and a background from the list below. Class is not used. You level as normal, every time you gain a level you get a new Hit Die (always a d10, although some backgrounds get bonus hit points) and your proficiency bonus increases at 5, 9, 13, 17 like normal. Weapon, armor, skill proficiencies are all in the backgrounds. Ideals, bonds, and flaws you make up to fit your character, or you can borrow some from the PHB.

2) Some of the backgrounds are magical (they have cantrips and/or abilities like Warlock invocations), but no background gives you casting ability. Magic generally works this way:

-Arcana proficiency gives you access to arcane magic, which revolves around sympathy between words and materials. Arcanists are always searching for special reagents which can create more powerful effects, as well as the proper procedures to channel them. To make a fireball wand, for example, might require the heart of a fire drake, the wood of a charred oak, AND a scroll that tells you the magic words to bind the magical energy. Arcane magic is good for powerful elemental effects and manipulation of matter, but it isn’t good for affecting people’s bodies, minds, or changes to a larger area.

-Religion proficiency gives you basic knowledge of the Godrunes, the primordial language spoken by the 4 Creators (The Stormfather, the Sun Queen, the Drowned Earth, and the Mother of Monsters). These runes can grant you power over the flesh and souls of the creatures of the gods, allowing one to mend injury, bind or banish both the undead and the Mother’s demons, as well as bind enchantments to strengthen the will and the flesh of a willing party.

-Nature proficiency gives you knowledge of basic herb and animal lore, as well as simple binding chants that are a combination of sympathy and rune lore. (Basically, alchemists and hedge witches have Nature proficiency to make healing potions, restoration potions, etc.) It also gives you knowledge of the nature spirits that live in the Mirror Lands, the hidden home of the elves and other fey creatures. These spirits are often tricksters, but can give boons of magical totems and fetishes that can grant all sort of strange effects. Shapeshifting, weird teleportation abilities, and illusions are the sort of abilities granted by nature spirits.

3) The game is set on a group of islands. At the start of the game, the party starts on a small ship. Everyone makes 2 characters, and may flip between them during adventures. Your PCs and 4-5 NPCs make up the crew of the ship. Everyone has proficiency with sailing stuff, like tying ropes, knowing how to row a boat, etc.

4) Hit Points: Every time you level, reroll all of your Hit Dice. Maximize 1 die of your choice. Add your Constitution modifier times your level. If this number is higher than your current hit point total, make that your new hit point total.

5) XP is not gained from monsters. You gain 1 XP for every gold piece you spend on something non-essential to your adventuring. If you go to town and spend 1000gp, whether on a donation to the local orphanage or on ale and whores, you gain 1000 XP. If you buy upgrades for the ship or cargo to trade, that also counts. You can make money (and therefore XP) by trading, although it will probably be a little slow. If you buy 5 healing potions, or a new sword, or buy ink to scribe scrolls, that does not count towards XP.

Backgrounds

Swashbuckler
Description: An agile fighter type. Pretty basic, your typical pirate.
Weapon proficiencies: All simple weapons, all martial “Finesse” weapons, shortbows, hand crossbows.
Armor proficiencies: Light, medium, shields.
Saving Throw proficiencies: Dex, Cha
Skill proficiencies: Choose 4 from this list: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth.
You gain the following special abilities:
+2 to all of your main hand attacks when using a one handed weapon.
You may add your Dex modifier to any off-hand attack you make.
You add +1 to your AC if you use a shield.
3 times per short test, you can parry an attack. Spend your reaction and roll a d8. You can add that roll to your AC on an attack that hits you. If you roll a 7-8, you may make one attack against the creature that hit you (if you can reach it).
The first enemy you attack on your turn may not make attacks of opportunity against you.
Your speed increases by 5 feet.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Without some sort of currency for advancement, you might be in danger of having one character get all the abilities.

That said, there are a lot of natural currencies like time and money, and if your players are reasonable and mechanically aware, then it might never be an issue.

Just watch out for the archetype that I always seem to end up as in crpgs that allow that sort of advancement - the meisterthief swordmaster archmage.
 

Wik

First Post
I have a similar goal to yours for the long run, and honestly, I don't think D&D is the way to go for that end goal. Or, if you do, go with generic classes from UA 3rd edition - three base classes that level up as you go, and then you hand out abilities as the result of adventures.

Were I to do it, I'd have a Skyrim style game where PCs level up as they use abilities (and those abilities level up through being used)... and have "feats" that are gained each time a PC levels that are unlocked at certain skill thresholds.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Just watch out for the archetype that I always seem to end up as in crpgs that allow that sort of advancement - the meisterthief swordmaster archmage.
Understood, no plans to run a Robert Jordan/Terry Goodkind campaign. :)

In all seriousness, attaching gold dependencies to pretty much everything is my plan. If the characters have enough gold to be comfortable and then use large amounts of downtime training (in the years), I'm planning some contingencies to make them less comfortable.

I have a similar goal to yours for the long run, and honestly, I don't think D&D is the way to go for that end goal. Or, if you do, go with generic classes from UA 3rd edition - three base classes that level up as you go, and then you hand out abilities as the result of adventures.

Were I to do it, I'd have a Skyrim style game where PCs level up as they use abilities (and those abilities level up through being used)... and have "feats" that are gained each time a PC levels that are unlocked at certain skill thresholds.
I've considered the idea of the UA generic classes, maybe bolted onto a E6 framework. But one of my main goals is to not use Vancian casting, but still keep the D&D identity and feel. I liked 5e better for that, and my current group is much more comfortable with 5e now rather than going back all the way to 3e.

The idea of leveling up abilities by use is something I've considered as well, but I don't know if I want to develop mechanics for it. I'm OK with the feel of using character level as a general proxy for skill use. Since they have relatively few abilities anyway, I'm assuming they'll get used.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
So, basic question, is there something fundamental to D&D that would be lost in such a scenario? Am I inviting my players to tie me up and kick me in the crotch for proposing such a terrible idea? Am I missing anything? (I have a bunch of supporting house rules for this idea, but I haven't posted them.)

No, mostly I think it would be fine. It sounds like you are just trying to merge the concept of class (i.e. a character's role in adventures + progressive abilities) into background, and give it the name of the second.

You may have some issues with the presentation, just because if you don't call them "classes" then you'll hear people complaining "but your game doesn't have classes!", while in fact it does... they are lighter classes than standard D&D, but your expanded backgrounds will cover just the same idea.

I definitely like your idea of trying to bind advancement with the story. Even within the strict classes structure of D&D you could do that, but then probably some players would feel "railroaded" too much, because probably this would take the form of restrictions in what a PC can choose at next level. In 3e Unearthed Arcana there was something similar: IIRC backgrounds were basically suggested level-up choices (or forced choices, if you decided to make them mandatory) based on what has happened to the character recently, including multiclassing/feats/skill choices. Doing something similar but based on items found and NPC met, as you suggest, is better.
 

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