Do you play the "You're Flatfooted 'til your Initiative" rule?

[reapersaurus]

I've just been shown that every game I've played in 3E, both sit-down games and online games, haven't been using a rule.

At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.

PHB, page 120

Apparently, even when there is no surprise round, a character is considered flatfooted until it reaches their initiative order in combat.
Main impact to game: No DEX boni, suffer sneak attacks, and no AoO.

Example: 4 1st level combatants, 2 on a side. NO SURPRISE.
1st side has Rogue Archer and Spiked Chain Ftr, 2nd side has Bbn and Mage.
Initiative: Bbn (20), then Rogue (18), then Chain Ftr (17), then Mage (16).

Bbn WAY in the back rank goes. Rages, pulls out greatsword, runs 80' right past the mage, past the Chain Ftr's entire threatened quadrant (incurring NO AoO's) and charges into Rogue, almost killing him cause no DEX bonus.
All because he started his Charge a couple blinks of an eye faster than the Rogue & Ftr started?

Then, the Rogue goes. He steps 5' back, ignores the Bbn that almost killed him, and fires at the Mage who he easily hits cause no DEX bonus and kills him with sneak attack damage.

Does this make sense to you?
Who plays this way?
I'm guessing that since I've never heard this rule discussed, and it's in the books, that MOST people would play this way, and I've just had uncommon groups.

But I think I'd remember if any group had done special AC calculations that only applied in the first round, and only until their PC moved, and used different tactics in the first round to take advantage of the PC or NPC that looked like they hadn't reacted yet.

How would that go, anyway?

Player1 to DM: I want to BullRush someone off the cliff. Which Kobold looks like they haven't moved yet?

That just sounds so awkward.
And more: Wouldn't this rule change the entire weight of initiative being rolled in the open?
There are so many reasons to now roll initiative secretly, so as not to unduly influence the strategies used in combat.

But I've never heard of any group rolling initiative in secret.

So what is your opinion?

 

[Thanee]

Well, we use it exactly like that. Once combat starts by rolling initiative, everyone is flat-footed until his or her (or its) first action comes up. This applies equally to surprise and non-surprise situations.

In some rare circumstances do we allow to ignore being flat-footed (i.e. in a formal duel, where all combatants are prepared, it just makes no sense).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Destil]

I've always used it, never had a problem with it. It's just part of the way combat works, there's supposted to be some[/b] bonus to going first, tactictial advantage aside, since with cyclic rounds otherwise initiative would often be fairly unimportant. "I want to bull-rush someone off the cliff. Which kobold looks like the're not ready for it?" It's all in how you interpret the abstract system.

This is why most rogues want improved initiative. In a good situation between their suprise round and the possibility of going before your opponent you can typicaly drop a farily tough target if you're lucky.

This also may be part of the reason I've noted you don't really consider there to be much value to heavier armors. The extra armor bonus is usefull in a lot of situations where you can't apply your dex. Aside from touch attacks (which quite often will hit reguardless), an armor bonus is generaly better if you can get it.

Players roll their initiative openly, the DM rolls it where they can't see.

 

[Thanee]

Example: 4 1st level combatants, 2 on a side. NO SURPRISE.
1st side has Rogue Archer and Spiked Chain Ftr, 2nd side has Bbn and Mage.
Initiative: Bbn (20), then Rogue (18), then Chain Ftr (17), then Mage (16).

Bbn WAY in the back rank goes. Rages, pulls out greatsword, runs 80' right past the mage, past the Chain Ftr's entire threatened quadrant (incurring NO AoO's) and charges into Rogue, almost killing him cause no DEX bonus.
All because he started his Charge a couple blinks of an eye faster than the Rogue & Ftr started?

Then, the Rogue goes. He steps 5' back, ignores the Bbn that almost killed him, and fires at the Mage who he easily hits cause no DEX bonus and kills him with sneak attack damage.

Well, first of all, the Barbarian would have provoked and suffered an AoO, because of the Fighter's Combat Reflexes!

Also, he does not know, that the Fighter has not acted yet, maybe he's just clever and has readied his attack?

Then the Rogue is only flat-footed, because he's not yet 3rd level, then he would ignore that because of Uncanny Dodge.

And if the Rogue is brave enough to fire at the Mage, while the raging Barbarian is next to him, hoping for the Fighter to intervene and handle that, then... why not!?

He knows his abilities quite well, and he knows, that the other guy, catched off guard is an easy target for him.

Of course, the Rogue would have used Tumble to get further away than just 5' and leave the field for the Fighter.

I don't think this situation is so awkward... the movement taking place at a point in time is much worse IMHO!

And, as shown above, there are also other abilities influencing this kind of situation.

If anyone, the only guy, who really did an awkward action, was the Barbarian, charging the guy behind the fighter (altho even that is quite possible).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Henrix]

Then, the Rogue goes. He steps 5' back, ignores the Bbn that almost killed him, and fires at the Mage who he easily hits cause no DEX bonus and kills him with sneak attack damage.

How could he sneak attack the mage when the barbarian started 80' away? Isn't the mage more than 30' away from them?

But I've never heard of any group rolling initiative in secret.

Well, we do, or rather, I as GM often keep the baddies initiative secret.

 

[thalmin]

I chose the first option, but keep in mind that if BOTH sides must close before combat takes place, everyone has already had an action, so nobody will be flat-footed.

 

[dcollins]

That just sounds so awkward. And more: Wouldn't this rule change the entire weight of initiative being rolled in the open?
There are so many reasons to now roll initiative secretly, so as not to unduly influence the strategies used in combat.

But I've never heard of any group rolling initiative in secret.

Actually, the DMG specifically states that the DM should not reveal monster initiative to the players (DMG p. 62, at the end of "Keeping Things Moving").

 

[diaglo]

yes, we use the rule as printed. we also pay attention to uncanny dodge for rogues and barbarian's of appropriate level.

 

[Darklone]

Well at 20 votes for yes...

Seems like everyone uses that rule. I agree that the whole movement stuff looks awkward... but it works kinda.

Some variants friends use:
- The players announce their actions for the round and THEN roll initiative. If you want to do something else, you get a -2 penalty on everything. This group rolls ini every round.
- Another group split the rounds. The have a move and an action round. Odd rounds are moves, even rounds are action rounds. Just take care that you don't move too much for an full attack action (and haste is an extra round after the action rounds for them).

I have to admit though that I do like the "Who draws first" feeling of initiative. Though we sometimes roll each round too.

 

[Pielorinho]

Hmm -- we play with this rule, and since we have one player use index cards to track initiative, we generally know the enemy's initiative. I don't think anyone's ever used this knowledge to change their tactics, but I could see this happening; for this reason, maybe we need to have the DM track initiatives instead of one of the players.

Daniel