Do you play the "You're Flatfooted 'til your Initiative" rule?

[Thanee]

Re: Re: re: Readied Actions & Initative

I'm sorry, but when you are being continuously rules lawyered, page 61 in the DMG is Truth. We agreed via democratic process to let the awareness take over, but the whining is getting old.

I see no problem with readied actions outside of combat either.

If I understand you right (and I am absolutely NOT sure of it), you don't like the fact, that there are no readied actions outside combat, but you also do not accept the solution to roll initiative right after awareness in any case, because the rules on p. 61 DMG dictate otherwise.

Well, in that case, I cannot help you. If you don't like a rule and do not like to change it, you'll have to live with either option you do not like, I suppose.

Bye
Thanee

 

[mkletch]

Actually, the group (except for one dissenting vote) has opted to use both awareness and readied actions outside of combat. I am not the dissenting vote. I am all for it, or anything else that adds a dash of realism into a very abstractualized game. I accept both as long as they make sense.

-Fletch!

 

[Poltergeist]

The flat footed until initiative rule is a hugely important balancing factor in the high dex/light armor versus low dex/heavy armor battle. It also lets rogues do some kind of damage in a fight as sneak attack only by flanking requires tactics that some parties are not up to and allowing sneak attack only on a surprise round leaves rogues almost never able to make them.

 

[Legildur]

I disagree. I find flanking to be the best opportunity for sneak attacks. Flat-footed is good (particularly if you surprise them), but my Rogue's combat support to the tanks relies heavily on flanking. Flat footed opportunities are scarce in our campaign with only partial actions on opening round (but with Improved Invisibility, things have shifted again).

With maxed Tumble (and we play a house rule that doesn't negate AOOs, but does increase AC), it is easy to move into a position to flank and sneak attack (assuming the opponent is vulnerable to those). Any Rogue who isn't willing to do that generally won't affect the combat much as damage will be light otherwise (like with my 12 Str and using daggers). Admittedly, with a level of Ranger, his flanking attacks suddenly became a whole lot nastier (possible 3d4+5+15d6 for average of 65 points of damage).

Even against opponents who can't be sneak attacked, he still tumbles into position and uses the Total Defense action to boost his AC by 6 (since 5+ ranks in Tumble) and that grants the tanks the +2 attack bonus from flanking which they usually convert into damage through Power Attack and reduces the chances of him being hit (important with low hit points).

 

[mkletch]

I disagree. I find flanking to be the best opportunity for sneak attacks. Flat-footed is good (particularly if you surprise them), but my Rogue's combat support to the tanks relies heavily on flanking. Flat footed opportunities are scarce in our campaign with only partial actions on opening round (but with Improved Invisibility, things have shifted again).

Excellent tactics. Imp Invis won't last for long, though. Dispel, greater dispel, see invis and invis purge will all become more and more common until you can assume they are in play and invisibility is useless.

The flat footed until initiative rule is a hugely important balancing factor in the high dex/light armor versus low dex/heavy armor battle. It also lets rogues do some kind of damage in a fight as sneak attack only by flanking requires tactics that some parties are not up to and allowing sneak attack only on a surprise round leaves rogues almost never able to make them.

So, if the tank could ready an action, and the rogue is sixty feet away but wins initiative, the tank just stands there like an idiot while the rogue skewers him; he just holds his shot so the whole thing is 'rules kosher'? What a bunch of bull. If your party cannot handle the tactics, don't bother being a rogue. An extra dwarf fighter with lots of HP to suck up the traps, or a cleric to heal the trap damage would do you a lot more good, since they are useful in combat.

-Fletch!

 

[Thanee]

Actually, the group (except for one dissenting vote) has opted to use both awareness and readied actions outside of combat. I am not the dissenting vote. I am all for it, or anything else that adds a dash of realism into a very abstractualized game. I accept both as long as they make sense.

Ah, ok!

I still think, if you use the initiative rules as I had written on the last page (i.e. directly following awareness), readying outside of combat becomes unnecessary...

OTOH, I can think of at least one situation, where ready out of combat would make sense:

You hide inside a room, crossbow pointing towards the door.
You ready an attack on anyone opening the door.

Clearly an outside of combat application, and sensible as well!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

However, I would not allow to overuse ready like this:

I move 30' and ready an attack on anything I come aware of, which looks hostile.

This would screw the whole point of rolling initiative, if everyone would walk around like this, i.e. while exploring a dungeon!

Therefore, except for few sensible exceptions, just allow ready only as a combat action, but roll initiative as soon as anyone becomes aware of any other faction.

Bye
Thanee

 

[mkletch]

This issue there is that a readied action has to be very specific and have no qualifiers. If you ready an action to cast prsimatic spray at the first thing to come around a particular corner, and something does, it gets blasted. Oops if its your buddy, and he gets sent of to Gehenna or something like that. You can't judge if something is hostile; you cannot make any conditions on your readied action.

Now, you can be a little sloppy with this. In the example above, only a cruel DM would make you cast pris spray at a gnat that came around the corner. The readied action should have included a minimum or maximum size for the creature. This is not a judgement, really. Again, it is a little fuzzy. That's what roleplaying is for. The combat rules cannot handle such a situation.

-Fletch!