Do you prefer DM-driven or PC-driven plot lines?

How much of the plot do you want to be DM-driven vs. PC-driven?

  • Player: I will carve my OWN way in the world!

    Votes: 3 2.1%
  • Player: It's nice to have some general plot as a jumping off point.

    Votes: 14 9.8%
  • Player: I'd prefer to choose between a bunch of story-driven plot options, but not make stuff up mys

    Votes: 12 8.4%
  • Player: The DM should drop hints where he or she wants us to go.

    Votes: 5 3.5%
  • Player: Lead me by the nose like the cow that I am!

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • DM: Let them carve their own ways in the world!

    Votes: 14 9.8%
  • DM: They will be aware of the state of the world as a jumping off point.

    Votes: 41 28.7%
  • DM: I will let them choose among several acceptable courses of action.

    Votes: 37 25.9%
  • DM: The players are smart enough to follow subtle hints about where I want them to go.

    Votes: 14 9.8%
  • DM: I lead them by the nose like the cows they are!

    Votes: 2 1.4%

  • Poll closed .
I let my players carve their own ways in the world. I believe in very detailed campaign settings, so I'm ready for them whatever they plan to do, and wherever they plan to go.

Do they want to buy a ship and set sail to defeat marauding pirates? No problem. Do they want to go and explore lost ruins? Sure. Do they want to help protect villages from monster-haunted dales? Ready to go.

Whatever they want to do, they can. They just have to interact with the populace to determine what's going on. (Of course, there will be times when things find *them*, and they are sucked into an adventure without their consent...!)

Mini-rant:
And that's why I can't understand DMs who are running published campaign settings when they say "I'm not buying X accessory - my campaign doesn't take place there." Well, what if the players *want* their characters to go there? You must railroad them pretty bad to disallow PCs travelling...
End rant!
 

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Well, I would expect a fair warning from the players if they wanted to switch from protecting the dales to hunting down pirates, enough time to prepare the region.

IMHO, talking aboput the scope of the campaign, and the region it will be set in beforehand among players and DM is a very good way to start a new campaign.
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
There is no such thing as a player led adventure. I'm sure that will sound shocking but there's a lot of truth to it.

If there's any point to having a DM at all then the DM has to provide the adventure. Let's take a look at some examples of adventures without the DM leading:

Paladin player: I go out and smite some evil. What evil does he smite? Why does he smite it? If he's going to create the evil vampire king who rules an adjacent empire and whose forces, led by a cruel ogre named Hulk have overrun the small village where his cousins live, he might as well kick the DM in the junk, take his dice and call himself the DM. (Especially since he can't do that if there are other players in the group--they will have their own ideas about where they are and what the village/city/inn/wilderness is like).

Rogue player: I go and steal something. What's there to steal? I go and steal some cheap wool lingerie like peasant girls wear and plant it in the greedy silk merchant's bedroom where his wife will find it. Who told him about the greedy silk merchant or his domineering wife?

Fighter player: I go and start a rebellion, kill the kings' men and proclaim myself the new king. How many men does the king have? Are they kind? How will the populace react to the rebellion? How will the king react to the rebellion? While this might seem to be the most player driven scenario of the lot, the DM is still calling all the shots--perhaps even more so because the world is going to be reacting to the player, giving the player no choice but to deal with what the DM throws at him. The paladin can say "Oh, he's really just a petty vampire count? I wanted a vampire king. I'll go find a bigger evil to fight." The rogue can say "Really? The silk merchant's place is that well guarded? I think I'll just pretend to be his agent and order flowers and an expensive dress and have the bills sent to his house. The fighter can't say "There are assassins in my bedroom?!? Forget this, I don't think I like this rebel angle after all."

Any adventure that the players come up with will need to be sparked by a situation that the DM has created. Even the most pro-active players need a world with possibilities for adventure before they can create their own. Even the players most determined to carve their own mark on the world need a well imagined world to carve a mark into. And that's what the DM provides.

That's an interesting point. I do agree that completely player led is hard to imagine, but I think it can still be quite a bit more player led than you suggest. How about looking at a more complicated example? Let's say that the DM said "create character backgrounds with strong plot hooks that will set up an entire campaign and work together to give me a good mechanism to get the characters to work together."

The players now provide their own story hooks in their character backgrounds. These don't necessarily have to be world dependent, but if they want to use stuff from the DM's homebrew, then all the better. For example, one (fallen noble) character's father was killed by the baron (DM can place this wherever they want), who's power and influence, combined with the lack of evidence, renders him untouchable. The character now seeks revenge. He works as a jailor in the city prison where he meets the second character, who was thrown in prison for life for pulling off a heist in the count's castle, so he knows alot about the place. Meanwhile, a third character is the Robin Hood sort, living in the woods fighting battles with the count's men and defending the poor.

The players have set up an obvious mechanism for the characters to meet. The jailor will spring the prisoner and they will hide out in the woods, where they will meet up with the "Robin Hood" guy, where they will eventually form the nucleus/leadership of a band of outlaws against the baron ("Robin Hood" fellow tells the DM that he plans on taking leadership feat). This was all preplanned by the players and the DM lets them do it, putting obstacles in their path to make things challenging. From there, the players can plan raids on the count's men while the DM introduces new NPCs to add complexity -- problematic love interests (on the wrong side like Maid Marion or Juliette, abducted/unwilling/reluctant like Buttercup in Princess Bride, etc.) work well here.

The players added their own NPCs in their character histories as well. The thief has underworld contacts that he fleshed out, the "Robin Hood" fellow might have peasant and/or sylvan friends, and the fallen noble would have relationships with people at court, including many people that also know the baron. The DM can take the player created NPCs and work with them, throwing out new situations for the players and the players can call on them as resources in the game, creating their own hooks.

Sure, the DM needs to interject plot hooks (including side adventures - but "Robin Hood's" help the poor mantra provided an easy feed for hooks) and new characters too, but the players set everything in motion and the players decide when, where, and how they will do things.

Now, to make things more interesting, you can work in more of a combination of DM and player led stuff. Like "Gone with the Wind," the players have their own agendas, goals, and storylines, but the DM sets them against a complicated and evolving world that makes it harder to achieve their goals and forces them to struggle and make tough decisions.

Take the story above, but part way through the campaign, after the players have built a bit of momentum, add in a foreign invasion. Now the baron that they hate is the defender of the realm and perhaps a necessary evil to prevent conquest by invaders. Does the party reluctantly join the baron to oust the foreigners? Is their spite toward the baron great enough that it will lead them to help the invaders (directly by aiding the enemy forces or indirectly by continuing to hamper the baron's ability to fend them off) regardless of the tragedy of looting and pillaging that will ravage their homeland? Are they heartless pragmatists -- waiting and watching to see who will win and then joining that side for profit? If they help the baron, will they be reconciled afterward or will they become enemies again once the invaders are repelled? If they help the invaders, will they continue to do so after the baron is defeated or will they suddenly have a new enemy in his place?

The DM doesn't drop in plot hooks that tell the players where to go. The DM also doesn't have a pre-planned story laid out for the characters. The DM drops in flexible plot twists that complicate the situation and open up new possibilities, adding more options for the players to develop their characters and show what kinds of decisions they make. It was the players though, not the DM, that decided right from the start that the game would be about righteous outlaws, rather than religious crusaders, squalid pirates, mercenaries, a noble family jockeying for power, freedom fighters, fend off demon invasion types, etc. They created the primary story arc themselves.
 

Well, I'm a mixture of all kinds of the DM types.
At the beginning of the current campaign I gave everyone a singular goal that would A) Provide a decent starting point for the adventure and B) Get everyone into the group. And no, it wasn't the 'You all meet in a bar' plot hook either. ;)
Basically, the big good city (known as Karm) on the main continent of the world holds what is known as the Great Games every 150 years or so. Adventurers from all over the land flock to the games, for the winner (or winners) are granted minor nobility, a plot of land on which to build their homes, and a somewhat small sum of money.

The object of the games is that the adventurers are presented a task and the first group to complete the task is awarded the prize. In this case, it was the destruction of a particularly nasty Death Knight and the return of a particularly nasty sword he stole.
So, the adventures, once given the task, flock all over the continent in search of this Death Knight. The players got involved in many story arcs along the way, including destroying a Thieve's Guild and earning the enmity of an assassin, unwittingly helping an ancient Elf rise to Lichdom and destroying a city in the process, cleaning an old Dwarven Mithral Mine out and returning it to the control of the Dwarves. Most of it I never planned in the long run.

Now that they're established nobles, the party Dwarf is running a Mercantile Business whilst helping spread spies across the land. The Gnomish Druid has his own grove and is part of an organization of Druids. The Human Cleric is the High Priest of his Temple in the city and the Elven Mage is acting as an ambassador to his bretheren. Meanwhile, they are trying to stop production of a bunch of corrupting weapons that are slowly plunging the Eastern Cities into anarchy.
Some of it I planned, some of it the Players did.
 

In my mind, a player-driven plot works like this:

Player decides his character cares deeply about something or perhaps is just interested in something. This could be part of the character's background (father killed by scheming baron) or something that happens during the campaign (party companion brutally slain). Said character then proceeds to follow that concern or interest.

He investigates the death of his father, starts researching the current location of the scheming baron and making contacts in the local Assassin's Guild. He gets the party in on it, too, and the whole gang sets out to take down this scheming baron what killed his daddy.

THAT'S a player-driven plot. DM's sitting there with a nice big dungeon all mapped out and the whole party hauls off to whack some baron he hasn't even thought about since the player came up with his character concept. Whoops!

As a DM, I LOVE that stuff. I love it when my players get so wrapped up in what's going on that I don't have to prompt them or direct them in any way -- when they're engrossed enough to seek out adventure on their own.
 

For my current campaign, I pretty much went with a Big Honking Plot. The party is currently coming close to finishing it.

I try to see the Big Honking Plot as being like the weather. Sometimes things are going to happen and they're outside of the party's control. An army from another country invades. A king is overthrown and rebellion strikes up in the land. A hundred minor fires from those two events spring up all over the country.

The players get to choose how they react to the events, and they get to stop some events, but they're not the only people in the world capable of changing it.

-Tacky
 

My 2 cp: it's a collabarative process, for us. I run the game, and offer possibilities. The players come to the process with their own ideas and backgrounds. Together, we investigate the game together. I create the metaplot, but their input changes the game's direction and tone. I make the skeleton, they provide the flesh, so to speak.

That said, at higher levels, I ask the players to give me an idea of where they're heading, story-wise. Stating out the monsters, NPCs and story becomes much more involved and time-consuming to prepare, even as I become more free-wheeling in my game style.
 

I really want to say "Hey this is my world , give info and such , Go do what you like" however the times I have tried this with my group I get terrible response they just sit at the tavern drinking until I drop a plot hook in their lap......no hinting or letting the players decide their own course for them ......so with trepidation and dissapointment I put lead them by the nose like cows,.
 

Hey, I posted already but this popped into my head just a minute ago.

Back in the ol'days of 2e (ah, nostalgia) I ran A LOT of campaigns. For about a year I sat down at each game without a story of any kind. I called it the Endless Campaign. The players drove everything and I set things up as needed. Whether it was combat, the barmaids kid going missing, or just a goblin brat who was a war-orphan (thankfully the PC's didn't kill him and he was raised to become a ranger who led a successful coup against a necromancer). Well, after that year went by, I had a problem. My players mutanied. They said if I didn't have a quest write up at the next game they wouldn't play. I couldn't believe it. My players actually wanted a story beyond the world they had. So, I made a quest which went down in the group's history as the best one yet (they also lost five characters in the course of a month, but hey, what do you do? :p ).

My point is this. I couldn't have come up with such a great quest without the ground work the players had done in essentially building the world, and they wouldn't have gotten that quest if they didn't ask to be treated like sheep. So, each option is good, it's just knowing when to use the right option.
 

I voted as a DM allowing PCs carving rights. The poll presented a quandry for me though. I present a detailed world to them. I develop several hooks. Then I let them go carve. I could have checked any of the first three choices, but I'm definitely in favor of PC-driven stories, both as a DM and as a player.
 

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