Do you study martial arts?

[Synicism]

Originally posted by Magic Rub Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm better prepared then you, or I can kick Mr. X's @$$. I'm just restating the point that style means nothing. In the end (high mastery) most styles are very effective, & have borrowed from one another, or come to the same conclusion regardless of the path. (as there's a finite amount of ways for a human to attack & defend it's self). What matters is how good you are, & how good your teacher was.

This is a point I always try to keep in mind. If you know how to read someone and observe a situation, you will know when you can run and when you have to stand your ground.

One thing I've discovered about TKD is that I wouldn't want to use it to someone I didn't plan to send to the hospital or mess up for life. It's all in the application of the technique to the situation.

Everyone knows that if you go to kick someone in the head, you're probably going to get yourself hurt unless they are already reeling, at which point you should just run and not worry about finishing them off, which will land you in jail. But if you aim that same kick to the kneecap, the groin, or any of a number of soft, squishy, and rarely defended spots, you can really hurt someone.

If someone is quick, and you go to try a locking technique against him, he may well be able to read you and pound you as you try and close. But if you kick him in the knee or punch him in the nose or throat first, well, you have your pick of things to do. My favorite is simply to shove him really hard and book it (which does look funny, yes, but it's damn effective. I want to protect myself, not maul other people).

At their core, any martial technique is a weapon. There's no such thing as an "ineffective" move. If a move was ineffective, it wouldn't have been invented. It is a matter of how and where you apply the move to achieve the effect that you want, whether it's to deal with a real attacker or to score in a competition situation. Translating from one paradigm to another can be difficult (I am having one hell of a time adapting to olympic point sparring from a more traditional system), but I'm learning to apply the moves I know in a different way.

I am glad that there are so many of us here who are into the arts, and who have found one that suits them. That is really cool. All of us have things we can learn from each other, and it's great that so many of us have had an open mind about these things.

 

[Synicism]

Here's a question for eveyrone out there.

I don't know when this occurred to me, but it seems that all the martial arts I have seen always wind up with the aggressor losing in any given situation. No matter how we are taught to deal with a situation, we all take advantage of the fact that someone else has committed to a single attack and learn all manner of unfriendly things to do to them.

I suppose this is consistent with the fact that many empty-hand forms grew out of the need to defend one's person and family, but I wonder if there is anyone out there who has been taught the opposite - to initiate an attack, overcome a solid defense, and subdue an opponent.

This is sort of an academic question. I don't think we should all run out and jump people, but I'm interested to see what everyone thinks.

As far as my training goes, I would think that the best way to do this would be to launch an attack at about knee level to either hobble or stun the opponent and then proceeding. Anything else would seem to open me up to a counter too easily.

Ideas?

 

[Magic Rub]

As far as my training goes, I would think that the best way to do this would be to launch an attack at about knee level to either hobble or stun the opponent and then proceeding. Anything else would seem to open me up to a counter too easily.

Ideas?

Do we really want to come up with ideas. I know I don't.

As a point of useless note...

I've been told that it takes 1/3 the time to punch or kick a target, then it does to for that target to counter that punch or kick. So from the time your eyes see the blow coming, it will take 3 times longer to respond to it then you actually have.

The time ratio is off, I cant recall the "real" numbers. But it was something to that effect. The point being unless you know when the blow is coming you cannot block it. You can get lucky, true.

What do you kids think about this?

 

[takyris]

Actually, I think that "the aggressor loses" is a big fallacy in the arts. I don't advocate starting fights, but I also advocate the fact that the fight starts well before the first punch is thrown. If I'm in a situation where I've got a bunch of people around me and I can tell that the leader is psyching himself up by talking trash, that a fight is definitely going to happen, then I am DEFINITELY going to strike first and hard.

Because we don't want to start fights, most of our techniques are reactive. But when we do sparring, we learn a lot of offensive techniques -- some of which will work well in a no-rules environment as well. I mean, heck, if you and another guy are sizing each other up and you can ease yourself into threat range without him noticing and then side-kick him in the knee or stomach, you have, if not WON the fight, at least taken him down a few notches and hurt his confidence a great deal.

At my school, all my techniques start against attacks. But I'm also taught how to use them offensively if the situation demands it -- although not until higher levels, when it's assumed that I'm not going to use it to beat up bank tellers and stuff.

And from brown belt on, we actually have to make short katas that are offensive in nature. They're called Mass Attacks. The idea is that you are being attacked by a number of people, or surrounded and threatened by a number of people (4 at first, then 6, 8, and 10 at higher levels) and you have to come up with something realistic to take them out. You're surrounded, and the kata has to take place within a 4' x 4' square. You're not allowed to use more than three strikes on any opponent -- the student is learning how to take people out quickly and effectively without a whole bunch of different strikes.

Actually, duh -- wanna see a good Four Man Mass Attack? Jeff Speakman does one in "The Perfect Weapon." He practices the same art I do, and what he does there is exactly what we were taught to do. It's the scene where four people surround him and demand his wallet. It lasts about five seconds total. I can't remember if he adds flashy stuff because it's a movie (ie spinning head kicks or anything), but regardless, it was pretty cool.

-Tacky

 

[takyris]

Magic: I think that that's true. The defense against it is distancing. If you let someone close enough to you that they can hit you without taking a step, you're gonna get hit. At my school, we do a lot of distance training at higher levels -- learning how to keep them at that frustrating range where they can't quite hit you without tiring yourself out by running away or using up too much room.

Most of the time, the attacker will get frustrated after seeing you easily block his stuff, and after about the third time he'll come in with something bold and aggressive. At which point you side-kick him in the knee or stomach. Or, on the street, you catch his arm, break it, take him down, jump on top of him, and break his neck.

Or whatever.

-Tacky

 

[barsoomcore]

I wonder if there is anyone out there who has been taught the opposite - to initiate an attack, overcome a solid defense, and subdue an opponent.

Yeah, sure, that's exactly what KSR teaches you. Two guys pointing swords at each other can have a hard time finding ways to get at each other without running into the other guy's sword.

Make a quick wrist cut or smack his sword out of line and in you go.

Although in KSR it's really hard to tell who "won" or "lost" a given kata -- because of the way the kata spiral around from one level to the next. When you first see it you think A wins, but after you've studied for a while you realise that B has actually controlled the situation, then you get shown the next level of A which seems to mean that A's actually seen through B's positioning and is ready to go, so I guess A won...

Magic Rub muttered:
The point being unless you know when the blow is coming you cannot block it.

With the caveat that you by no means have to see an attack to know it's coming. We used to do "blind" practise -- A stands with sword in sheath, hand on hilt. B stands directly behind A, sword raised above head. All B has to do is lower his sword and touch A on the head. A's job is to step aside from the downward blow, draw his sword and lay it overtop of B's descending blade.

Cards are pretty stacked in B's favour, of course, and the first 20 times A gets knocked on the head over and over. But every single one of us got it eventually. You get to the point where you just KNOW that the sword is coming, and you turn, your sword comes gliding out and drifts right over B's blade. Switch partners and still B always misses.

It was weird. Like we all developed ESP of a sudden.

That's an extreme example, but the basic truth is that you don't have to be aware (consciously aware, that is) that an attack is coming in order for your body to counter it. In fact, I would argue that if you need to realise what's happening before you can respond, you'll almost certainly lose.

 

[Magic Rub]

And from brown belt on, we actually have to make short katas that are offensive in nature. They're called Mass Attacks. The idea is that you are being attacked by a number of people, or surrounded and threatened by a number of people (4 at first, then 6, 8, and 10 at higher levels) and you have to come up with something realistic to take them out. You're surrounded, and the kata has to take place within a 4' x 4' square. You're not allowed to use more than three strikes on any opponent -- the student is learning how to take people out quickly and effectively without a whole bunch of different strikes.

Actually, duh -- wanna see a good Four Man Mass Attack? Jeff Speakman does one in "The Perfect Weapon." He practices the same art I do, and what he does there is exactly what we were taught to do. It's the scene where four people surround him and demand his wallet. It lasts about five seconds total. I can't remember if he adds flashy stuff because it's a movie (ie spinning head kicks or anything), but regardless, it was pretty cool.
-Tacky

You reminded me of this...

For part of my black belt test my instructor made me do something he calls the gauntlet. It consisted of 5 back to back (ect. ect.) sparring matches. With no pausing except to shake hands at the beginning of a new match. The first part of the match consist of 3 singles fights, in my case I fought first a 3rd degree Black belt (& got pasted) then a 2nd degree Black belt (didn't do to bad), then a Mid way to black belt (other then being bagged I walked over him). The second part was hell! First a 2 on one, consisting of the 3rd & 2nd degree's (It was a bunch of running, back kicks, & pushing one into the other) I lived but man was I exhausted. The last match was 3 on one, a 1st, 2nd, & 3rd degree vs. me, oh the running, & pushing & attempting not to passout from exhaustion. It was hell! 3 fresh experienced fighters against poor wiped out me. I didn't fall but man did I hurt the next day.

 

[Jeremy]

I suppose this is consistent with the fact that many empty-hand forms grew out of the need to defend one's person and family, but I wonder if there is anyone out there who has been taught the opposite - to initiate an attack, overcome a solid defense, and subdue an opponent.

Actually yes. This comes up a lot at our school from one particular instructor (we've got 7, pick and choose what works for you and your body type) who gives an alteration to one of the lessons the head instructor hammers home.

All attacks whether planned or unplanned have one thing in common, the attacker has an expectation of what is to happen.

If he grabs you, he expects you to struggle, if he punches you, he expects you to be hit and in pain. If he does anything to you he expects you to freeze in terror.

And of course one of your greatest weapons is surprise. Do the unexpected. We train in one on one situations, 3 on one situations, multiple weapons, caught by surprise, etc. to teach your body how to deal with these things even when your mind is freezing up.

Anyways, this other instructor (Robert), advocates that if you know it's going to come to blows and you've already worked out what the aggressor has, that there is no alternative, keep playing along but don't bother waiting for the first punch.

We generally opt for stunning or easily disguised openers in situations like this, but to those who have seen San Soo, it's pretty much an offensive style to begin with. Even defenses are only preceptors to offense.

So yes, I'm sure there are many schools that teach proactive self-defense as well as reactive self defense.

 

[Jeremy]

It was hell! 3 fresh experienced fighters against poor wiped out me. I didn't fall but man did I hurt the next day.

Yup. This stuff is always fondly remembered afterwards.

We do line drills occasionally, class against one student at a time coming one at a time, two at a time, or three at a time but no more. Dispose of one, another attacks. San Soo has a lot of grappling in it as well as strikes and pressure points so sometimes it can get pretty hectic in the middle of the storm, but you always walk away grinning at some of the things that worked, and some of the things that backfired spectacularly.

And you always learn something.

My current personal favorite boast is picking up a yellow belt in my peripheral vision who had gotten behind me and came in kick I wasn't supposed to see. I was able to pull my currently leveraged victim into the path of the blow instead and counter to the new agressor's groin. I felt very good about myself for that one.

At least until Darian caught me by surprise, put my head between my feet and sent me airborne. I love martial arts. There is no more educating or fun method of exercise I can think of.

As long as you don't mind the bruises.

 

[Magic Rub]

Yeah, sure, that's exactly what KSR teaches you. Two guys pointing swords at each other can have a hard time finding ways to get at each other without running into the other guy's sword.

Make a quick wrist cut or smack his sword out of line and in you go.

Although in KSR it's really hard to tell who "won" or "lost" a given kata -- because of the way the kata spiral around from one level to the next. When you first see it you think A wins, but after you've studied for a while you realise that B has actually controlled the situation, then you get shown the next level of A which seems to mean that A's actually seen through B's positioning and is ready to go, so I guess A won...

With the caveat that you by no means have to see an attack to know it's coming. We used to do "blind" practise -- A stands with sword in sheath, hand on hilt. B stands directly behind A, sword raised above head. All B has to do is lower his sword and touch A on the head. A's job is to step aside from the downward blow, draw his sword and lay it overtop of B's descending blade.

Cards are pretty stacked in B's favour, of course, and the first 20 times A gets knocked on the head over and over. But every single one of us got it eventually. You get to the point where you just KNOW that the sword is coming, and you turn, your sword comes gliding out and drifts right over B's blade. Switch partners and still B always misses.

It was weird. Like we all developed ESP of a sudden.

That's an extreme example, but the basic truth is that you don't have to be aware (consciously aware, that is) that an attack is coming in order for your body to counter it. In fact, I would argue that if you need to realise what's happening before you can respond, you'll almost certainly lose.

I understand your point & agree, but you're anticipating the act. You're anticipating the act correctly, but your still anticipating. I was simply stating the simple fact of human reaction time. It is truly odd what a person can be trained to do, including side stepping physics (to a point). As we all know if my "fact" was the only governing factor in fighting, the attacker would always win