Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[Fenes 2]

All I can say here is that I have NO idea what all that still, silent 4 to 5 times a round stuff you're talking about means. Sorcerers use metamagic feats like everyone else, only it takes a full round. But maybe that's not what you're referring to, I just can't tell.

You're welcome to your definition of flexibility. I'm just pointing out that sorcerers get very few spells known, and if your spells known are no good in situation X, then you're no good.

Ok, let me clarify it: How many Mages prepare a silent Dispel magic in order to get rid of a silence cast on them? How many prepare two, in case the fdoes not work? How many prepare a silent Dimension Door in case they need to make a getaway when silenced? How many mages prepare a still Dispel Magic to dispel a hold person?

A sorcerer will be able to use such spells with the appropriate metamagic on the fly. If held he can use a still dispel magic, as often as it takes to get free, but if it is not needed - and a silent dispel magic is what it takes, then he can use that instead (provided he has taken those feats). If you need 4 Dimension Doors to clear an obstacle, a sorcerer will be able to do it, while few mages will have 4 dimension doors prepared. OTOH, if no obstacle requiring 4 dimension doors are encountered, the sorcerer can use those four slots for 4 haste spells, if there are enough battles. Or Energy Immunity. A sorcerer with that spell can cover a whole party with the appropriate immunity right when it is needed, but if it is not needed he can spend those slots on teleport without error instead, or empowered cones of cold.

A sorcerer with the right mix of spells can cover a vast amount of situations, since he is a spontaneous caster. He may not have the ideal spell, but odds are he has a spell that works - and he can cast it as often as needed. With the right mix of metamagic feats that flexibility is even greater. If suddenly all your spells need to be silent, or still, a sorcerer can cast all his spells silent or still (if he has the feat), just one level higher. A wizard rarely has prepared that many silent or still spells.

It is not that hard to build a sorcerer that can cover almost any area reasonably well, and such charcters have a flexibility that is almost without peer.

A sorcerer just needs to have one spell that helps, and then he can cast it as long as he has slots. A wizard is stuck with the number of useful spells appropriate for one situation he has prepared. And if he has not prepared enough of the right spells he is no good.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Rock-Paper-Scisssors is easy. Nothing beats Rock.

I have a Sorcerer. At level 6 he took Haste. So far, so good, right?

From levels 6 to 11, here's how combat would go.
> Cast Haste on self
> Watch as the other players in the group tried to bribe/convince/threaten me to Haste them instead of nuking the bad guy.

You say "Haste takes up your level 3 slots". Well, that stopped being a problem at level 9 or 10; at that point, I wasn't using my level 3 slots for attack spells any more. This character is level 15 now, he doesn't attack with Fireballs, he attacks with much bigger spells. So, the whole "it's using up your spell slots faster" was fairly trivial to begin with (after all, I'm a Sorcerer, 7 uses per day covers pretty much everything), and was only even remotely damaging for about 3 levels.

No other buff at any level is such a consistent force multiplier. It's targettable, it has no downside, and it even gives an AC boost. Let's say that again. NO DOWNSIDE. Assuming you have more level 3 spell slots than you have encounters per day, there isn't any reason NOT to haste yourself on round 1.

And so far, we've just discussed hasting yourself. If you haste someone else, the damage you lose by not throwing a Fireball is made up for by the damage the targetted person gains.
For a fighter-type who isn't using a Full Attack, you've doubled his damage output. If he's using Full Attack the later iterative attacks won't hit anyway.
For a caster, you've doubled his spellcasting ability. It's not just about damage spells. Healing, dispels, etc. are all critical.
There are no situations where the person doesn't greatly benefit from the Haste. Frankly, I'm not sure raising the level would even be a solution, you'd just be delaying the inevitable. Add a costly material component or an XP cost?

 

[Mulkhoran]

Oh my god, you've got to be kidding!!!! HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!

You get one action per round, typically one spell for a spellcaster. If you haste, then it is two. That would be a doubling or a 100% increase.

This thread is TOAST!

-Fletch!

Well, I was going to be civilized.

His ridiculous analogy about spellcasting and percentage increases is incredibly flawed. An additional partial action is an additional partial action, period. It's completely irrelevant what you can *do* with that. It's the SAME thing.

Also, my percentage-based comeback is a perfect example of this flaw. You can't simply say "you get one action per round" and "fighter gets four attacks per round". Just as the fighter could have four attacks, the mage could have Quicken Spell. And if that's the case, with Haste, he could cast three spells per round instead of two. That's a +50% increase compared to a +100% increase. Which is why the example is flawed.


But I should just stick with Storm Raven's example. Some things benefit some characters more than others. Deal.

 

[Tzarevitch]

That's a strawman argument. A wand is not the only way to cast Slow. (A scroll of it only costs 375 gp. Memorizing the spell is free.)

And you're still missing the point.

D&D tactics work like rock/paper/scissors. For every tactic there is a counter, and for every counter there is an anti-counter.

If you never use Paper, you will always lose to Rock. This does not mean that Rock is overpowered.

Actually, I think it is YOU who are missing the point.

Your argument does not address the complaint that a lot of us have that Haste as written is overpowered. You are arguing that something cannot be unbalanced if there is a countermeasure to it. Your argument would make more sense if you assume that there is a simple and readily available countermeasure that anyone can use al the time. That is not the case with Haste. Haste has only three countermeasures; counterspell the caster, "Slow" which is a rarely used spell because it is really only useful to counter Haste and is only available to Wizards and Sorcerers, and Dispel Magic which is not a sovereign countermeasure. One countermeasure (Slow) is an exceptionally weak spell that is too high level IMHO and nearly useless beyond countering Haste. The second countermeasure has only a 50/50 shot of working assuming that you are of similar power level to the caster of the Haste spell. Note also that of the three possible countermeasures only one (counterspell) actually prevents the effect. The others only allow you to mitigate the damage. To top it off, these countermeasures are only available to a small percentage of the adventuring community (i.e. those who know the spells and have them memorized at the time AND those with a device that can cast the spell AND can actually use said device).

To use an extreme example of why your argument fails; say hypothetically that the PHB has a 1st level spell called Nuclear Winter that inflicts 100d20 points of damage over a 1 mile radius for 10 years. Say also hypothetically that the PHB had a second 1st level spell called Return to Summer that ends the Nuclear Winter immediately when cast. Your argemunt implies that the Nuclear Winter spell is not unbalanced as is simply because there is a countertactic.

It is small consolation to those who were obliterated in the surprise Nucler Winter spell that the disgruntled wizard cast on the city on round one. HOwever, one valiant priest who knew the Return to Summer spell AND had it memorized that day AND happened to be away from home when the attack happened, rushed to the scene of the devastation and got his counterspell off . . . on round 2.

Viola! A successful countermeasure, therefore the spell is not overpowered.

Tzarevitch

 

[mkletch]

Excellent exposition on the flexibility of Sorcerers, Fenes 2. It's not that hard to figure out, but very hard to get it into writing like that.

-Fletch!

 

[two]

Haste is one of the strangest spells in the game, I think.

Do the following thought experiment.

Strip all haste items/spells from the game. All. No boots, no spells, no nothing. Act like Haste never existed.

Ok.

Now, imagine somebody coming up with a new "house rule" spell called (you guessed it) HASTE.

(note: this house rule HASTE is exactly the same as the official HASTE in the non-thought-experiment world)

First of all, everyone on the boards would rip it to shreads as being grossly overpowered at level 3. I can just imagine the flaming carnage.

So a change is made: the house-rule HASTE spell is not level 3, instead it's level 4.

Question: Would the average sorcerer/wizard still take the spell?

Answer: yes. It's the ONLY way besides quicken to get off 2 spells in a round, and that is potentially far better than any other level 4 spell. The +4 AC and other tactical possibilities are just gravy.

Next, let's say house-rule HASTE was placed at level 5. Would sorcerers/wizards still select it? Same reasoning as above. Yes. No other spell can give that sort of effect. It's still the best level 4, level 5 spell hands down.

Keep going. Level 6. Level 7. Level 8. Level 9.

Let's say HASTE was only allowed as a Level 9 spell. How does it stack up? Would anyone ever take HASTE as a level 9 spell as opposed to time stop or Meteor Storm or Shapechange?

Amazingly, even if HASTE was a level 9 spell, it would probably be in most player's top 4 list of best level 9 spells! A spell that lets you cast another level 9 spell the same round, then 2 more the next round and etc. for x more rounds? Now THAT's power. I expect the typical level 9 uber-spell combo to be: Haste+Time Stop. Or Haste+Shapechange. Or ... you get the idea. Start with Haste, then do your default level 9 spell.

So is HASTE over powered for a freaking level 3 spell?

Is this even a question? Compared to other spells, overwhelmingly yes.

Is it game-breaking, not always. Sometimes, yes (when what should be a big scary battle turns into a 2 round hold person/web/etc slaughterfest). But it IS very boring. Every spell casting type is helped by haste (summoner? enchanter? transmuter? all good). Do you have to start each battle casting haste then X? No, you could just cast X. Barring unusual circumstances, it's suboptimal, and difficult to justify role-playing wise (my incredibly intelligent wizards didn't think to double his spell casting power, oops, my bad).

What level would I put HASTE at? Level 6, probably, range personal. Mass haste does not exist. Sure, let them haste, at level 6 it won't happen 3 times a day without serious consequences.

Level 3? I mean come on guys, that's just absurd. You could just invest in a wand of haste (50 charges). It's a lot of money, sure. But HOW LONG will it take you to run through 50 charges? That's like 4-5 character levels or something! Maybe more. If you are a super-intelligent wizard that hasn't figured out a way to cast haste at the start of each and every battle, no matter what -- geez. You ain't that bright I guess.

Yes it's overpowered. No it does not generally break the game; the DM usually compensates by throwing more/harder monsters at you ever combat. Would the game be better with Haste errated to a much higher level? I'd say yes; Sorcerers and Wizards don't really need a power boost past level 5 or so.

 

[mkletch]

To use an extreme example of why your argument fails; say hypothetically that the PHB has a 1st level spell called Nuclear Winter that inflicts 100d20 points of damage over a 1 mile radius for 10 years. Say also hypothetically that the PHB had a second 1st level spell called Return to Summer that ends the Nuclear Winter immediately when cast. Your argemunt implies that the Nuclear Winter spell is not unbalanced as is simply because there is a countertactic.

It is small consolation to those who were obliterated in the surprise Nucler Winter spell that the disgruntled wizard cast on the city on round one. HOwever, one valiant priest who knew the Return to Summer spell AND had it memorized that day AND happened to be away from home when the attack happened, rushed to the scene of the devastation and got his counterspell off . . . on round 2.

Viola! A successful countermeasure, therefore the spell is not overpowered.

A tad harsh, Tzarevitch, but that sums it up nicely.

-Fletch!

 

[Fenes 2]

I would not consider Slow a weak spell. I have rarely used it in my games as a DM because it is, imho, a very powerful spell. Cast it on a couple melee fighters or meleeing monsters and poof goes their full attack routine, reducing their damage output to single attacks while standing still or charging.

Couple it with hit and run tactics or ranged attacks and you have one sorry party.

 

[Mulkhoran]

A sorcerer with the right mix of spells can cover a vast amount of situations, since he is a spontaneous caster. He may not have the ideal spell, but odds are he has a spell that works - and he can cast it as often as needed. With the right mix of metamagic feats that flexibility is even greater. If suddenly all your spells need to be silent, or still, a sorcerer can cast all his spells silent or still (if he has the feat), just one level higher. A wizard rarely has prepared that many silent or still spells.

It is not that hard to build a sorcerer that can cover almost any area reasonably well, and such charcters have a flexibility that is almost without peer.

A sorcerer just needs to have one spell that helps, and then he can cast it as long as he has slots. A wizard is stuck with the number of useful spells appropriate for one situation he has prepared. And if he has not prepared enough of the right spells he is no good.

Very few individual spells are so flexible as to be useable in multiple scenarios. Sorcerers get very few spells known. They tap out at 5 1st and 2nd, 4 3rd-5th, and 3 three the rest of the way. This is a TINY FRACTION of the available spells in the PHB. To say that you can build a spell list out of this that will enable you to be as flexible as a wizard, who can learn them ALL, is................

Well, let's just say that sounds a *bit* contrived.

 

[Fenes 2]

Just for the record: As a DM, I did not use haste imc. And as a player, neither my bard nor my sorceress did take that spell, because I consider it overpowered.